Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[lrt's friend]

Expropriations and demolitions on Rideau Street would defeat the purpose of building LRT on the corridor. The whole point would be to revitalize the corridor, and having a dead zone on the south side of Rideau would destroy the street.

Cummings Bridge was originally built to accommodate streetcars. A parallel bridge for trains would destroy the appearance of this heritage bridge.

[JM1]

I am not sure about your exact alignments eternallyme, but I do think we need more people thinking about LRT in the East End. The road network is insufficient to handle all the traffic (especially the 10,000 new residents of CFB Rockcliffe). Thinking about shuttle buses to Blair and Transit-Priority along already capacity-filled Hemlock is just not enough.

What is more, people need to understand that the LRT from Orleans is really being built to serve Orleans -- not the East End of the city, which is largely bypassed.

The idea I put forward of LRT looping up from St Laurent, through CFB Rockcliffe and then back to the Confederation Line either along Montreal Road or Bathgate/Blair, should also be considered as a less expensive option -- but admittedly, the transfers and long routing might deter people from using this option to get downtown from the East End. But it could be a start (with a future tunnel to be bored under Montreal/Rideau to connect to downtown).

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I know there has been some discussion on how to build a rail corridor to the urban east end. My best analysis for the Rideau Street-Montreal Road corridor, section by section, is here (the assumption is that it runs from the Rideau Centre to Blair Station): ...

[lrt's friend]

I was out on east Innes Road yesterday and thought how useless the Transitway corridor out there is. Yes, it will provide fast commuter service but as far as further urbanizing the Innes Road corridor, it will be a dismal failure. We have developed Route 94 as a major transit route with great success but it will be awful to eventually relocate it to the South Orleans Transitway. Innes Road is becoming Orleans main street, and eventually, a centre median LRT line should be built there. We are building the LRT extension on Highway 174 but we are already 20 years too late as the shift in Orleans since then has been quite dramatic. LRT on 174 may revitalize north Orleans to some degree but it is already a far distance from the centre of the population and the centre of commerce.

Are we making a mistake on the proposed alignment when we considering the real future of Orleans?

On the subject of those dead set against interlining the downtown tunnel, I am looking at the London tube map and there appears to be significant interlining and branching of underground routes.

Also, the example of the Bloor-Danforth subway has brought up many times. There was a very practical reason why train interlining was eliminated quite quickly. The real reason was that there were two platforms at St. Georges (at different levels) and passengers did not know which platform the next train would arrive. It was explained that many passengers waited on the stairs between the two levels. This was not practical in the long-term and there was no fix to resolve it, so interlining was eliminated. This issue would not apply to Ottawa with proper design.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I was out on east Innes Road yesterday and thought how useless the Transitway corridor out there is. Yes, it will provide fast commuter service but as far as further urbanizing the Innes Road corridor, it will be a dismal failure. We have developed Route 94 as a major transit route with great success but it will be awful to eventually relocate it to the South Orleans Transitway. Innes Road is becoming Orleans main street, and eventually, a centre median LRT line should be built there. We are building the LRT extension on Highway 174 but we are already 20 years too late as the shift in Orleans since then has been quite dramatic. LRT on 174 may revitalize north Orleans to some degree but it is already a far distance from the centre of the population and the centre of commerce.

I don't think that South Orleans Transitway is ever going to get built, really. It's been punted so far down the line... And ya, rapid transit along Innes makes a lot more sense.

The 174 corridor works well as it's the most logical place for bus interchanges. A bus going south to Innes then a train east to downtown is a wacky route. Furthermore, even now Place D'Orleans is more central to Orleans' population than Innes Road is.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Also, the example of the Bloor-Danforth subway has brought up many times. There was a very practical reason why train interlining was eliminated quite quickly. The real reason was that there were two platforms at St. Georges (at different levels) and passengers did not know which platform the next train would arrive. It was explained that many passengers waited on the stairs between the two levels. This was not practical in the long-term and there was no fix to resolve it, so interlining was eliminated. This issue would not apply to Ottawa with proper design.

That was one of the reasons. The main reason was the interlining required less frequency, which was negatively received by the public; why bother eliminating one transfer if your average wait time is then doubled? For those who are transferring from E-W to N-S, the doubling wait time cancels out the benefit of eliminating the transfer, and for those travelling in a straight line it increases their wait time with literally no additional benefit.

[lrt's friend]

That was one of the reasons. The main reason was the interlining required less frequency, which was negatively received by the public; why bother eliminating one transfer if your average wait time is then doubled? For those who are transferring from E-W to N-S, the doubling wait time cancels out the benefit of eliminating the transfer, and for those travelling in a straight line it increases their wait time with literally no additional benefit.

Given the fact that the system is now at capacity, they have no choices on the matter. But it isn't a perfect situation even at capacity because you may not get on the first train at the transfer. With interlining, you are guaranteed to get to your destination without delay as your train has a spot in the schedule.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Given the fact that the system is now at capacity, they have no choices on the matter. But it isn't a perfect situation even at capacity because you may not get on the first train at the transfer. With interlining, you are guaranteed to get to your destination without delay as your train has a spot in the schedule.

But with half the frequency, you're less likely to get on the first train at your origin point.

[eternallyme]

Lead story on CTV was that the federal government is about to step in for LRT Stage 2 funding.

Such is likely an effort to win votes in the Ottawa seats they are defending. Even though only 2 of the swing seats are in ridings the LRT is travelling in (unless they think they can pick up seats...doubt it).

[1overcosc]

I'm not at all surprised this happened, but I am surprised it happened this early. Would have expected the CPC to wait until closer to e-day for maximum impact.

In any case, good to see electoral politics working in our favour.

It came 14 months after the province's commitment, but it came before it had to start paying a contractor, which is all the matters in the end.

[Cre47]

Pretty obvious, if this wasn't an election year, they would have said no. Pretty obvious. So I guess the Ottawa seats could make a big difference between an NDP minority or a Conservative minority or even preventing an NDP majority (or in the wildest of probabilities preventing a Liberal win)

[DEWLine]

I think the South Orléans line is going to be built. Because it's going to be needed as much as the LRT line taking over from Route 95, and as much as Route 94 along Innes. The three together will form trunks serving the borough as a whole.

[J.OT13]

Great article from David Reevely. Call it irony, call it hypocrisy, call it his past coming back to bite him in the ass.

Reevely: Jim Watson of 2016 demands the province make good on the errors of Jim Watson of 2009


David Reevely
More from David Reevely

Published on: January 15, 2016 | Last Updated: January 15, 2016 6:39 PM EST

Mayor Jim Watson would like the provincial government to pay for an extension of light rail to Trim Road, which would cost about $150 million more than the city is already planning to spend to run an easterly leg to Place d’Orléans.

The arguments he puts forth are spectacular. One, it would be cheaper for the province than taking back Highway 174, a former provincial highway that Progressive Conservative governments dropped on the city in the late 1990s — with no real justification other than that doing so meant the provincial government wouldn’t have to pay for it any more.

The city has asked the province to take the road back over a couple of times. No, we’ve already undone enough Harris-era downloading, has been the general tone of the response.

Second, and this is the really good one, Watson complains that the city is owed, because the province didn’t pay its usual one-third share of the cost of the first phase of light rail, so it’s reasonable that it would kick in extra for the second phase. Ottawa’s seeking a billion provincial dollars for the $3-billion “Stage 2.” The city won’t kick in more to go all the way east to Trim Road, but Watson wants another $150 million from the province to cover the whole bill for doing it.

Who’s responsible for the province’s not paying its fair share of the first phase? Perhaps we should look to the guy who was the regional minister for Ottawa when the Ontario government pledged $600 million in 2009 for a project that was already expected to cost $2.1 billion. That would be Jim Watson, then the MPP for Ottawa West-Nepean and the minister of municipal affairs and housing.

In a big news conference at the RA Centre in December that year, all the local provincial Liberals excitedly pledged the money, which everybody knew at the time was a lot and yet not enough. Watson was among them. Within a couple of weeks, Watson had resigned from the cabinet, declared he was running for mayor, and begun very loudly worrying about whether there was enough money to carry off the light-rail project the city was planning.

Why, anybody would think that announcing too little money was a devious way of trying to sabotage Larry O’Brien, whom Watson was challenging for the mayoralty. As it turned out, voters weren’t thrilled with the idea of killing yet another rail plan and Watson fairly quickly changed his tune. Impressively and to his credit, Jim Watson 2012 managed to solve the problem that Jim Watson 2009 helped create and is getting the first rail phase built.

But for Jim Watson 2016 to say the province now needs to make up for the actions of Jim Watson 2009 … well, that’s some next-level politics. That’s not to say the position is wrong. The provincial government has shovelled money into rail projects around the Golden Horseshoe, in particular, paying vastly more than the standard one-third with no explanation for why those projects are different from Ottawa’s. The province did screw Ottawa in 2009. But Jim Watson 2016 is just about the worst person on Earth to make the point.

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twitter.com/davidreevely

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columni...good-on-the-errors-of-jim-watson-of-2009

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by DEWLine

I think the South Orléans line is going to be built. Because it's going to be needed as much as the LRT line taking over from Route 95, and as much as Route 94 along Innes. The three together will form trunks serving the borough as a whole.

And it'll get built before there's ever rapid transit in Lowertown, Vanier, the Glebe, Old Ottawa South, or across the Ottawa River.

[Aylmer]

I just read this post on here from a few months back.

Originally Posted by Cre47

So I guess the Ottawa seats could make a big difference between an NDP minority or a Conservative minority or even preventing an NDP majority (or in the wildest of probabilities preventing a Liberal win)

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And it'll get built before there's ever rapid transit in Lowertown, Vanier, the Glebe, Old Ottawa South, or across the Ottawa River.

Well, maybe Jim Watson of 2025 will be petitioning Jim Watson of 2014/2015 for money to build those areas... It is beyond me as to why they would focus on the long-distance commuter, but at the same time, Im sure that the rabble were more concerned with anything other than busses no matter where they were to/from.

Though two of those are really simple fixes (just expensive). Rideau/Montreal LRT/Subway and the Bank St Subway. I personally would have made one of those a plan as part of phase 2, not an extension to the bowels of trim.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

... It is beyond me as to why they would focus on the long-distance commuter, but at the same time...

I think it is a rational political calculation. An extension to the 100k plus voters in Orleans can be done on an existing right away for a few hundred million. A Bank or Montreal subway would cost more and serve a fraction of the voters.

[lrt's friend]

As far as affordability, I still like my idea of a Rideau Street streetcar as a starter system. We could probably build from Rideau and Sussex to Charlotte with a little loop into the market for $100M. If we wanted a little more extensive, do a loop Rideau, Charlotte, Laurier, Nicholas and that could be done for $200M as a two way loop and would then connect the University of Ottawa as well.

A Bank Street subway, although I see being highly desirable will cost in the billions. Where is that money going to come from?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Well, maybe Jim Watson of 2025 will be petitioning Jim Watson of 2014/2015 for money to build those areas... It is beyond me as to why they would focus on the long-distance commuter, but at the same time, Im sure that the rabble were more concerned with anything other than busses no matter where they were to/from.

Though two of those are really simple fixes (just expensive). Rideau/Montreal LRT/Subway and the Bank St Subway. I personally would have made one of those a plan as part of phase 2, not an extension to the bowels of trim.

And there's the rub: expensive.

Ottawa voters, especially the suburban ones who rule the roost, are cheapskates. And when they are politically willing to spend money, it's on projects that serve the suburbs.

Central Ottawa is not going to see real mass transit in this century, and probably not in the next one, either.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As far as affordability, I still like my idea of a Rideau Street streetcar as a starter system. We could probably build from Rideau and Sussex to Charlotte with a little loop into the market for $100M. If we wanted a little more extensive, do a loop Rideau, Charlotte, Laurier, Nicholas and that could be done for $200M as a two way loop and would then connect the University of Ottawa as well.

A Bank Street subway, although I see being highly desirable will cost in the billions. Where is that money going to come from?

Such a streetcar really, really, REALLY needs to cross the Rideau River. Vanier has the crappiest access to mass transit, and crappiest local transit service, of any central neighbourhood, and there is absolutely no political will to take even baby steps that would improve the service. In fact, the existing bus service has been the target of repeated cuts since the 2008 "rationalization", only some of which has finally been undone in the past couple of service changes.

In fact, some time in the next century (long after I'm gone), I'd like to see the Corkstown and Adawe bridges be replaced by pedestrian-transit bridges that would turn the Somerset West-East-Donald corridor into a streetcar and pedestrian/bike axis as well.

There is a huge opportunity to redevelop the east side of the city that is being ignored. Transit needs to figure highly into that, but it's not going to happen. The CFB Rockcliffe project could be a catalyst, but that is now been watered down into a suburb-in-the-city project that Ottawa has way too many of. This city has never yet met an opportunity it couldn't waste on crap.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As far as affordability, I still like my idea of a Rideau Street streetcar as a starter system. We could probably build from Rideau and Sussex to Charlotte with a little loop into the market for $100M. If we wanted a little more extensive, do a loop Rideau, Charlotte, Laurier, Nicholas and that could be done for $200M as a two way loop and would then connect the University of Ottawa as well.

A Bank Street subway, although I see being highly desirable will cost in the billions. Where is that money going to come from?

That route would be useless.

If we're going with a Rideau streetcar, have it run on the Cummings Bridge into Vanier.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Such a streetcar really, really, REALLY needs to cross the Rideau River. Vanier has the crappiest access to mass transit, and crappiest local transit service, of any central neighbourhood, and there is absolutely no political will to take even baby steps that would improve the service. In fact, the existing bus service has been the target of repeated cuts since the 2008 "rationalization", only some of which has finally been undone in the past couple of service changes.

Certainly the bus routes in the area make little sense. The 14 is pretty direct but the rest are all Rideau to St. Laurent via 50 side streets.