Rapid Transit in the Halifax area

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Again, I also think we should have/can afford all three. All have benefits to our society. I also agree that there seems to be a lot of resistance here for any level of transit above what we already have - other posters have written about this to the point where you can't introduce an idea that hasn't already been covered at least 2 or 3 times, so it seems obvious that we should expect more, but on the public/government side there does not seem to be this shared opinion.

When I first read your original post on the subject I (mistakenly) interpreted it to mean that rather than build the library we should build transit, which is hogwash. There has been so much complaining (mostly from one or two individuals, it appears) about the library cost then it makes me wonder why a greater investment in a convention centre hasn't been commented on by these same posters.

The salient point is that we do not have an endless supply of funds for public projects. We need to rely on our political leaders to make wise decisions as to where to allocate these scarce resources. When they decide to splurge on image or ego projects to mollify a loud, persistent group, that simply means that other projects get scrubbed.

The library is of course the most visible example of what happens when politicians make bad decisions. But we are also now seeing a far more troubling example emerging: that of the 2008 decision by the province that we needed a new convention center, while kicking the VG Hospital replacement can down the road. While the scope of the two projects is different on the order of perhaps 10:1, the fact remains that our capacity to "do it all" is simply an illusion. We cannot do it all, at one time. We need to allocate our scarce resources properly.

The same holds true when it comes to transit projects, with the extra complication of having management at HRM and Metro Transit who cannot seemingly see past the nose of their bus. One who uses Transit here sees the mismanagement of that resource on a daily basis. It is very poorly run, organized, and managed, and so it should not be surprising that those same management staff are not developing a vision for transit that goes beyond their comfort zone. Add to that inept political leadership that seeks magic bullet solutions for their own little district and you end up with nothing.

I have said it before and I say it again: we need a visionary, a Robert Moses type, with the mandate and competence to push necessary stuff past the bureaucracy, past the parochial politicians, and get it done. Our system at present simply will not allow that. Imagine a Queen Judith on steroids <shudder> in charge of Transit. As much as I hate to say it, that is what is needed.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by portapetey

When the global warming floods come, can we be Venice?

I'd take gondolas over SUVs.

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The same holds true when it comes to transit projects, with the extra complication of having management at HRM and Metro Transit who cannot seemingly see past the nose of their bus. One who uses Transit here sees the mismanagement of that resource on a daily basis. It is very poorly run, organized, and managed, and so it should not be surprising that those same management staff are not developing a vision for transit that goes beyond their comfort zone. Add to that inept political leadership that seeks magic bullet solutions for their own little district and you end up with nothing.

I have said it before and I say it again: we need a visionary, a Robert Moses type, with the mandate and competence to push necessary stuff past the bureaucracy, past the parochial politicians, and get it done. Our system at present simply will not allow that. Imagine a Queen Judith on steroids <shudder> in charge of Transit. As much as I hate to say it, that is what is needed.

Well said. In order to develop a vision, you have to have one to begin with. A Robert Moses type figure wouldn't get a second interview here once they found out he had "ambition". When they were going around looking for public ideas for the redesign, I submitted several "wild, crazy, out-of-the-box" ideas like turning the #1 into an express service that bypassed Bayers Rd and creating a direct link between Bayers Lake, Mumford, Bridge Terminal and Dartmouth Crossing, among a whole host of other ideas. Unless they've had a change of heart in the final draft, even those simple building blocks to a higher order service won't see the light of day. Pity, really.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

Well said. In order to develop a vision, you have to have one to begin with. A Robert Moses type figure wouldn't get a second interview here once they found out he had "ambition". When they were going around looking for public ideas for the redesign, I submitted several "wild, crazy, out-of-the-box" ideas like turning the #1 into an express service that bypassed Bayers Rd and creating a direct link between Bayers Lake, Mumford, Bridge Terminal and Dartmouth Crossing, among a whole host of other ideas. Unless they've had a change of heart in the final draft, even those simple building blocks to a higher order service won't see the light of day. Pity, really.

It may be enough just to have a regional transportation authority even if there is no Robert Moses (which might be a good thing). The transportation authority would oversee the HDBC, Metro Transit, and provincial highways in the region. They would be able to invest in transportation projects with the best value for dollar rather than whatever kind of project happens to fall under their purview, which is what seems to be happening with the HDBC and Metro Transit.

Here's a related report from 2006: http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/infoitem5.pdf

[gm_scott]

Originally Posted by someone123

It may be enough just to have a regional transportation authority even if there is no Robert Moses (which might be a good thing). The transportation authority would oversee the HDBC, Metro Transit, and provincial highways in the region. They would be able to invest in transportation projects with the best value for dollar rather than whatever kind of project happens to fall under their purview, which is what seems to be happening with the HDBC and Metro Transit.

Here's a related report from 2006: http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/infoitem5.pdf

Too bad the idea was shot down by the province, but it was almost 10 years ago now. I wonder if the province would be more open to the idea now?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by scryer

Just as a side note.... Toronto's subway trains have drivers and they strike fairly often to get higher wages. Vancouver's trains don't technically have drivers so there haven't been any strikes as far as I was aware for that.

In terms of city development, I think that Halifax has a lot of the same "ingredients" that Vancouver does. Both cities are coastal, both are close to a U.S border, both are used to export and import goods, both cities have populations located very densely, etc. I could also see Halifax developing a stronger hospitality industry and becoming a powerful metropolis in the Maritimes. Although I believe this vision would require the intervention of the Federal government; they would have to open new trade agreements with Europe, the Caribbean nations, Africa, and the eastern South American nations to really catalyze Halifax's development.

Back to transit.... I said it before but I'm hoping that once you guys really start feeling the impact that your new urban condos are going to have on your streets, you'll definitely be a little more open to grade-separated transit solutions.

A better comparison would also be Boston.

Their harbour is also a major obstacle to transit. However, all lines do cross it at least once.

If the explosion didn't happen, Halifax would be at least twice the population.

The old streetcar lines were over used during WW2 with little to no maintenance. The city decided to tear up the lines instead of repair them. Halifax would now have a system that might rival TTC's streetcar system.

Now the city is left asking "Now what?"

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If the explosion didn't happen, Halifax would be at least twice the population.

I don't think that is true, as Halifax's population is not made up of only the descendents of people who lived here in 1917. Also, if you look at the actual area of devastation it is relatively small compared to the actual size of peninsular Halifax today. I believe that, although it was a horrendous tragedy (of which my descendants were survivors), it had little to do with the state of the city in 2016.

The old streetcar lines were over used during WW2 with little to no maintenance. The city decided to tear up the lines instead of repair them. Halifax would now have a system that might rival TTC's streetcar system.

Except that it was a general trend in major cities to replace aging rail systems with new, trendy bus services. It was seen as the way of the future and in many places was certainly helped along behind the scenes by the auto companies. In Halifax, we didn't stray too far from the streetcar lines, as our electric buses (called trolleys IIRC) still functioned the same, but without rails. Regarding the switch from rails to buses, I think it would have happened eventually one way or the other, whether WWII wore out the system or not. Also, I don't think that a modern LRT system adapted to Halifax's needs of today would have a lot in common with the old trolley system except some of the old routes might still be used as extensions to a larger system.

Just my opinions, by the way...

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don't think that is true, as Halifax's population is not made up of only the descendents of people who lived here in 1917. Also, if you look at the actual area of devastation it is relatively small compared to the actual size of peninsular Halifax today. I believe that, although it was a horrendous tragedy (of which my descendants were survivors), it had little to do with the state of the city in 2016.



Except that it was a general trend in major cities to replace aging rail systems with new, trendy bus services. It was seen as the way of the future and in many places was certainly helped along behind the scenes by the auto companies. In Halifax, we didn't stray too far from the streetcar lines, as our electric buses (called trolleys IIRC) still functioned the same, but without rails. Regarding the switch from rails to buses, I think it would have happened eventually one way or the other, whether WWII wore out the system or not. Also, I don't think that a modern LRT system adapted to Halifax's needs of today would have a lot in common with the old trolley system except some of the old routes might still be used as extensions to a larger system.

Just my opinions, by the way...

If you take the Greater Boston and the HRM and you compare them, not on actual population, but on population growth they have been growing the same.

One thing that might have happened over time would have seen some of the downtown become transit malls. Either that, or they start digging like they have been almost everywhere else in the downtown cores. (Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa-Confederation line, Montreal, and, yes, Boston.)

[Drybrain]

By the way, here's another LRT in a city comparable in size to Halifax. A 22-stop line to open next year.

The regional municipality of Waterloo comprises Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and bunch of other surrounding suburban and rural areas, and is about 500,000 people.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

By the way, here's another LRT in a city comparable in size to Halifax. A 22-stop line to open next year.

The regional municipality of Waterloo comprises Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and bunch of other surrounding suburban and rural areas, and is about 500,000 people.

Great find. I wonder if the planning documents and financial analysis are available for that. I'll have to dig around that website later when I have a chance. Maybe you've done that already?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by portapetey

Great find. I wonder if the planning documents and financial analysis are available for that. I'll have to dig around that website later when I have a chance. Maybe you've done that already?

No, but from what I understand from news reports, it's partly about connecting the twin downtowns of Kitchener and Waterloo, and facilitating the area's tech-oriented labour force with a transit option that will connect employment areas and downtowns (the tech companies are largely based in suburban office parks, but more and more people are choosing to live centrally).

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The old streetcar lines were over used during WW2 with little to no maintenance. The city decided to tear up the lines instead of repair them. Halifax would now have a system that might rival TTC's streetcar system.

The City of Halifax didn't invest a dime in transit until 1969. The streetcar system was built by the utility Nova Scotia Light and Power and its predecessors. The old Birney cars, which carried 33 million riders a year during its peak, were badly worn after the war. The problem was that modern streetcars, like the PCC cars adopted by Toronto and other cities, were too big for Halifax's narrow streets and tight turns. Economically it made more sense to convert the system to "trackless" electric trolleycoaches, which served until Halifax took the system over on January 1, 1970. Incidentally, Halifax Transit's system-wide annual ridership still falls several million short of the number of riders NSLP's trams were carrying in 1945, out of a peninsular Halifax population of 75,000.

[ns_kid]

More regarding Halifax's street railway:



NSLP Birney tram 154, c. 1948. 28 feet, 32 passengers




Toronto TC PCC trolley 4500, c. 2011. 46 feet, 46 passengers (134 including standees)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

The City of Halifax didn't invest a dime in transit until 1969. The streetcar system was built by the utility Nova Scotia Light and Power and its predecessors. The old Birney cars, which carried 33 million riders a year during its peak, were badly worn after the war. The problem was that modern streetcars, like the PCC cars adopted by Toronto and other cities, were too big for Halifax's narrow streets and tight turns. Economically it made more sense to convert the system to "trackless" electric trolleycoaches, which served until Halifax took the system over on January 1, 1970. Incidentally, Halifax Transit's system-wide annual ridership still falls several million short of the number of riders NSLP's trams were carrying in 1945, out of a peninsular Halifax population of 75,000.

That is what I was getting at. They tore them up due to lack of maintenance. It was cheaper at the time. No, over 50 years later, we need it back.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

By the way, here's another LRT in a city comparable in size to Halifax. A 22-stop line to open next year.

The regional municipality of Waterloo comprises Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge and bunch of other surrounding suburban and rural areas, and is about 500,000 people.

But... but... that's impossible and totally not feasible!

Jokes aside... it is feasible, and should be a top priority. Lets take some of that money to build roads and put it towards this.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

One thing that might have happened over time would have seen some of the downtown become transit malls. Either that, or they start digging like they have been almost everywhere else in the downtown cores. (Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa-Confederation line, Montreal, and, yes, Boston.)

I think the transit mall approach could work well in Halifax. With limited crossings and priority signalling you get a lot of the benefit of a dedicated right of way at a much lower cost than tunnels or elevated track. A street like Barrington or Hollis could be converted and the sidewalks could be widened. Transit vehicles would not be able to safely go as fast but the distances in Halifax aren't very far. The problem right now is that buses spend a lot of time not moving at all.

The proposed commuter rail extension from the South End rail terminal into downtown would essentially be a transit mall. It would probably be similar to the Caltrain route near downtown SF.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don't think that is true, as Halifax's population is not made up of only the descendents of people who lived here in 1917. Also, if you look at the actual area of devastation it is relatively small compared to the actual size of peninsular Halifax today. I believe that, although it was a horrendous tragedy (of which my descendants were survivors), it had little to do with the state of the city in 2016.

Nobody really knows for sure what the city would have been like, but I think a significant amount of damage was done.

The city's industrial economy really took a beating, because so many major operations were concentrated in the North End. The old Piercey's location on Robie was a garment factory from the late 1800's that went bankrupt due to the explosion. It employed around 1,000 people and was probably one of just many operations that went bust. For the time that was a huge employer.

The event is also pretty unique in Canada in terms of the actual number of people who lost their lives or were injured. There were lots of major fires but they mostly resulted in comparatively few deaths. I'm not sure there's another event in a Canadian city that comes close to 2,000 dead and 8,000 injured. At the time that was about 10% of the city, and in those days it would have been much harder for people to recover from their injuries and live normal lives. In 1917 I bet a lot of people who were blinded became unemployed paupers and that was that.

Halifax grew by over 20% from 1911-1921, which includes the direct effects of the explosion, but it only grew by 3% during the 1920's, a period of time when most of North America was booming. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people lost their jobs and left the city. It's probably not unlike how a lot of people ended up packing their bags and moving to cities like Houston after Hurricane Katrina destroyed what they had in New Orleans.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Nobody really knows for sure what the city would have been like, but I think a significant amount of damage was done.

The city's industrial economy really took a beating, because so many major operations were concentrated in the North End. The old Piercey's location on Robie was a garment factory from the late 1800's that went bankrupt due to the explosion. It employed around 1,000 people and was probably one of just many operations that went bust. For the time that was a huge employer.

The event is also pretty unique in Canada in terms of the actual number of people who lost their lives or were injured. There were lots of major fires but they mostly resulted in comparatively few deaths. I'm not sure there's another event in a Canadian city that comes close to 2,000 dead and 8,000 injured. At the time that was about 10% of the city, and in those days it would have been much harder for people to recover from their injuries and live normal lives. In 1917 I bet a lot of people who were blinded became unemployed paupers and that was that.

Halifax grew by over 20% from 1911-1921, which includes the direct effects of the explosion, but it only grew by 3% during the 1920's, a period of time when most of North America was booming. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people lost their jobs and left the city. It's probably not unlike how a lot of people ended up packing their bags and moving to cities like Houston after Hurricane Katrina destroyed what they had in New Orleans.

Precisely why I said "Just my opinions, by the way..."

A significant amount of damage was done, to be sure, but also keep in mind that the downtown area received mainly minor damage, such as broken windows and such, whereas the highest level of damage was concentrated in the north end (and Dartmouth, which many people often forget about). This is defined fairly clearly in the map at the link (no info about Dartmouth on the map, however):

https://novascotia.ca/archives/explosion/archives.asp?ID=21

Note that the map also indicates the construction materials of the buildings shown.

For anybody that has a few hours to kill, there is a lot to go through at the following:
http://https://novascotia.ca/archives/explosion/

I will never understate the amount of damage and devastation to the people of Halifax. I have heard the first hand stories of my now-deceased relatives who lived through it. However, I can't say that there is a clear lineage from the Halifax Explosion to the state of Halifax today, as there were so many other factors that affected it in the ensuing years (WWII, for example).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If you take the Greater Boston and the HRM and you compare them, not on actual population, but on population growth they have been growing the same.

One thing that might have happened over time would have seen some of the downtown become transit malls. Either that, or they start digging like they have been almost everywhere else in the downtown cores. (Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa-Confederation line, Montreal, and, yes, Boston.)

I'm not sure that Boston, a US city relatively near other major US economic and political centres, is comparable to Halifax, a Canadian city very remotely located from the economic and political centres of Canada (well, after the 18th century anyhow...).

Yes, I'm not saying it wasn't a mistake to tear up the rails, I was just saying that many cities in North America tore up a bunch of street car lines in favour of buses. As ns_kid indicates in his post, it would have been a large investment by NSLP towards a system that was gradually losing favour among citizens as personal cars were becoming more obtainable allowing people to live further out of the downtown area and commute in said cars.

I'm sure if the rail system had been kept, there would have been upgrades along the way, although the state of the current transit system doesn't indicate that the upgrades would have been all that major.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

The City of Halifax didn't invest a dime in transit until 1969. The streetcar system was built by the utility Nova Scotia Light and Power and its predecessors. The old Birney cars, which carried 33 million riders a year during its peak, were badly worn after the war. The problem was that modern streetcars, like the PCC cars adopted by Toronto and other cities, were too big for Halifax's narrow streets and tight turns. Economically it made more sense to convert the system to "trackless" electric trolleycoaches, which served until Halifax took the system over on January 1, 1970. Incidentally, Halifax Transit's system-wide annual ridership still falls several million short of the number of riders NSLP's trams were carrying in 1945, out of a peninsular Halifax population of 75,000.

Thanks for your post! I'm curious about the NSLP/Halifax relationship worked. Growing up in Dartmouth, I remember riding on the electric trolleycoaches in Halifax but standard buses in Dartmouth. Do you know how all that worked, given that Dartmouth was its own city at the time?