Rapid Transit in the Halifax area

[someone123]

Originally Posted by portapetey

Fair enough on most points, but those metro areas provide a hell of a tax base to draw on for funding rail projects (and probably lots of inter-urban commuters), whereas we're surrounded by thousands of square kilometres of forest.

I'm not so sure about this. Does the Tacoma light rail really get lots of commuters from elsewhere? Up until recently when I was there it didn't connect very meaningfully to other transit services in the region. It has a daily ridership of 3,600, which is less than a lot of bus corridors in Halifax.

A lot of cities in the US aren't particularly well off, nor do the suburbs always want to cooperate much. American cities are however more ambitious and have a greater tendency to invest in big projects. They also blow lots of money on sporting venues, which I think is less wise, but when it comes to transit Halifax is not ambitious enough. It is actually in a pretty enviable position in the sense that the municipality and region and one in the same and the tax base is fairly large. HRM is comparable in size to cities like Miami and Minneapolis. It is a smaller metropolitan region but the fact is that the municipality is significant and makes it much easier to coordinate transit projects than in comparable metropolitan areas with more municipalities.

The thinking around commuter rail and the way it's presented in that Globe and Mail article are emblematic of the problems in Halifax. People talked about the low-end version of commuter rail, which clocks in at around $30-50M in capital outlay (if I remember correctly), as though it's some huge undertaking for the city. The version with a short track into downtown that would cost something like $90M was considered the gold-plated version. Neither version was amazing from a value per dollar perspective, but they are both extremely modest projects compromised by the desire to be as cheap as possible. Something in the $100-300M range might produce much better value for dollar, and actually be transformative for the city, but the political climate is too timid to even consider something in that range. It's really unfortunate.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ask the average Joe if they think a new library is a bad project, and they would not be willing to say no.
Ask the average Joe if they think a new Convention centre is a bad project, they would not think that.
The average Joe drives, and sees those buses as the problem.

What Halifax, and Canada needs is an attitude adjustment.

I think that attitude adjustment has already started... but needs to be ramped up.

The NC investment is open to debate, although there are several arguments for and against it that have hardly been brought up.

But the buses part... well, that's just plain irresponsible. It is North America, but come on, I ride the bus in Halifax as bad as the system is. I can't see how people can afford cars given how dire many of them paint their situation to be.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

The thinking around commuter rail and the way it's presented in that Globe and Mail article are emblematic of the problems in Halifax. People talked about the low-end version of commuter rail, which clocks in at around $30-50M in capital outlay (if I remember correctly), as though it's some huge undertaking for the city. The version with a short track into downtown that would cost something like $90M was considered the gold-plated version. Neither version was amazing from a value per dollar perspective, but they are both extremely modest projects compromised by the desire to be as cheap as possible. Something in the $100-300M range might produce much better value for dollar, and actually be transformative for the city, but the political climate is too timid to even consider something in that range. It's really unfortunate.

Can't Bombardier negotiate some kind of Canada-wide infrastructure deal? I mean, it would make so much sense and would create employment and spillovers.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not so sure about this. Does the Tacoma light rail really get lots of commuters from elsewhere? Up until recently when I was there it didn't connect very meaningfully to other transit services in the region. It has a daily ridership of 3,600, which is less than a lot of bus corridors in Halifax.

A lot of cities in the US aren't particularly well off, nor do the suburbs always want to cooperate much. American cities are however more ambitious and have a greater tendency to invest in big projects. They also blow lots of money on sporting venues, which I think is less wise, but when it comes to transit Halifax is not ambitious enough. It is actually in a pretty enviable position in the sense that the municipality and region and one in the same and the tax base is fairly large. HRM is comparable in size to cities like Miami and Minneapolis. It is a smaller metropolitan region but the fact is that the municipality is significant and makes it much easier to coordinate transit projects than in comparable metropolitan areas with more municipalities.

The thinking around commuter rail and the way it's presented in that Globe and Mail article are emblematic of the problems in Halifax. People talked about the low-end version of commuter rail, which clocks in at around $30-50M in capital outlay (if I remember correctly), as though it's some huge undertaking for the city. The version with a short track into downtown that would cost something like $90M was considered the gold-plated version. Neither version was amazing from a value per dollar perspective, but they are both extremely modest projects compromised by the desire to be as cheap as possible. Something in the $100-300M range might produce much better value for dollar, and actually be transformative for the city, but the political climate is too timid to even consider something in that range. It's really unfortunate.

I won't disagree with you over the potential relative ease of working within a single municipal boundary / government rather than across multiple municipal units, and I certainly agree with you on the issues around lack of initiative to actually start development.

That said, I just can't see a reasonable comparison between a city like Miami with over 400,000 people in a 55 sq mile area and 5.5 million in a contiguous urbanized area of over 1100 sq. miles, versus (the former city of) Halifax's 130,000 in 37 sq. miles and 300 or so thousand in a total urbanized area of just over 100 square miles. Miami city has a population density of over 11,000/sq mile and the broader urban area remans over 4400/sq mile. That's a ton of potential ridership, easily providing a critical mass.

Halifax former city would be around 3500/sq mi, and Halifax's urbanized area just under 2800/sq mi. I think we could support a line or two, sure, but I can see why planners would find the case much more difficult to make. (There's no point in discussing the numbers around HRM as a whole, with its other 100,000 people scattered throughout another 2000 sq miles, with little potential impact on things like rail transit. As i and others have discussed before, this idea that there is a "city" of 400,000 here is an impression skewed by the inclusion of the former County.)

Your other example, Minneapolis-St. Paul, although a contiguous urban area of 2.6 million in 1000 sq mil and metro area of 3.5 in a ridiculous 8100 sq mi, is probably a better comparison in terms of the density of its outer neighbourhoods, but still much denser than Halifax in the city proper. Notably, even this (relatively) large / dense city has only developed light and commuter rail lines in the last 10 years. We aren't the only ones seemingly "behind" on public transportation!

I think Halifax should keep seriously investigating a light rain line or two. I just don't think looking to cities approaching the size of Vancouver (Minneapolis) or Toronto (Miami) as examples will help any one make the case for it.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

A lot of cities in the US aren't particularly well off, nor do the suburbs always want to cooperate much.

Indeed, I'd imagine that cities like Tacoma and Buffalo have a less robust tax base than Halifax. Buffalo especially is dirt-poor.

Originally Posted by someone123

The thinking around commuter rail and the way it's presented in that Globe and Mail article are emblematic of the problems in Halifax. People talked about the low-end version of commuter rail, which clocks in at around $30-50M in capital outlay (if I remember correctly), as though it's some huge undertaking for the city. The version with a short track into downtown that would cost something like $90M was considered the gold-plated version. Neither version was amazing from a value per dollar perspective, but they are both extremely modest projects compromised by the desire to be as cheap as possible. Something in the $100-300M range might produce much better value for dollar, and actually be transformative for the city, but the political climate is too timid to even consider something in that range. It's really unfortunate.

I know I've mentioned this on here before, but do people have any idea what, for example, Toronto is spending on transit? Right now they're planning on more than $3.5 billion for an LRT line and a single subway stop in Scarborough. Toronto is a bigger city, you say? Yes, its metro area is about 15 times the size of ours. But $3.5 billion is 35 times the projected cost of commuter rail in Halifax. And the Scarborough transit line, being a sort of secondary line in a suburban corner of the city, doesn't have nearly the potential for transformative effects as a commuter system here does.

Granted, Toronto's expenditure is too high, because transit planning in that city has been completely hijacked over nonsensical talk like "Downtown has a subway, so Scarborough deserves one too," regardless of population density. Nonetheless, they're building it.

The wan-can't-afford argument is nonsense. We can totally afford it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Thankfully the city can afford a convention centre, library, and transit, just like pretty much any other city of comparable size in the developed world.

Yeah, I agree with your sentiment but the balking over even simply using an existing railcut for commuter rail seems to be an insurmountable obstacle at this point. Let's not even talk about higher-order integrated transit - it's as if we can't afford any level of transit that isn't a bus or standard ferry, if you listen to some.

People just don't seem to like watching their tax money get spent around here. Heck, you don't have to look too hard on this very forum to see people still complaining about the library, and it's been open for over a year!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by scryer

Or... you could put it all underground and not have to worry about spending extra money per year (which would increase in price per year) to meticulously clear the snow and tow vehicles? Heck if you kept it completely grade-separated, you would only have to deal with snow clearance. And then that way, you only have to worry about operating costs and track maintenance. Trust me, if a streetcar is stuck for whatever reason, it is going to take a long time for it to get back running. If there's an accident or a car needs to be towed, it will take a longer time for a "rescue" bus or tow-truck to reach the area because they will have to deal with traffic themselves (especially during rush-hour).

Seeing as how I don't live in Halifax, it's very hard for me to judge what would work best for the people. But if you want speed, convenience, and reliability then vouch for a rapid transit system (of whatever technology) that is mostly, if not completely, grade separated. These grade-separated systems, when implemented effectively, become major arteries to the urban heart of a city.

I don't mean to sound gregarious but I strongly think that when you guys see how many boots The Nova Centre, The Alexander, The Maple, and The Roy Halifax all add to the streets; you may pay more attention to grade-separated rapid transit solutions. And I just want to stress that you also need to keep the future for the next 25 years in mind as well. When a city needs a rapid transit solution, people need to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. A rapid transit solution is more appealing when it can be used to cut down your commute time significantly.

Don't make the same mistakes that Winnipeg, Edmonton, and (IMO) Calgary made with their rapid transit systems. You have other Canadian cities' examples to learn from.

I love the idea of grade-separated rapid transit. And yes, I think we should be looking at least 25 years into the future, but probably more like 50.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I love the idea of grade-separated rapid transit. And yes, I think we should be looking at least 25 years into the future, but probably more like 50.

Over 60 years ago, the Young line opened with 11 stops (from Eglinton to Union)

Look at where it is now.

If Haligonians could get their head out of their _ _ _, and build something, they could reap the rewards. If the City could change their master plan to reflect TOD, Halifax could grow.

But alas, they want to stay small town.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I didn't say that... my point is that nobody blinks an eye when considering that number for a library, yet it seems even just upgrading buses (or heaven forbid some sort of rail based system) is extraordinary. I think we need both and can't "pick and choose" based on our own personal priorities.

For a small investment, all transit could have onboard credit payment options which would increase ridership and thus income for the city and Halifax Transit to expand. Where is the app as well? These things don't cost millions to implement, but they do have an real return on investment. The library is an important social investment, but transit is important too and should have equal amount or more dedicated to it.

Why would we not invest in the trade promotion / convention side? It is also income generating, local employment promoting and brings in money like transit could. Of any of these things, only one doesn't really bring income for those who don't use it. How about the library starts charging very small fees for borrowing books outside of the facility for cost recovery. See what I mean?

What is the ambiguous part? Its a lack of vision that we can't have all of these things at the same time... we are getting played against one another! Most small european cities of Halifax's size have good transit, libraries, and always a trade and/or sports venue. The "proximity" to other big places argument doesn't cut it for me considering the total population of the maritimes and the relative importance of Halifax. Sure, the private sector has a role to play... but lets not kid ourselves that they aren't chipping in as well.

The biggest issue is probably the attitudes of people working against one another and digging their heels in, plus a public administration that doesn't implement basic changes that could have sweeping effects.

Again, I also think we should have/can afford all three. All have benefits to our society. I also agree that there seems to be a lot of resistance here for any level of transit above what we already have - other posters have written about this to the point where you can't introduce an idea that hasn't already been covered at least 2 or 3 times, so it seems obvious that we should expect more, but on the public/government side there does not seem to be this shared opinion.

When I first read your original post on the subject I (mistakenly) interpreted it to mean that rather than build the library we should build transit, which is hogwash. There has been so much complaining (mostly from one or two individuals, it appears) about the library cost then it makes me wonder why a greater investment in a convention centre hasn't been commented on by these same posters.

As a side point, when comparing Halifax to European cities, we also need to consider the level of taxation, and whether that would be acceptable to Canadians. I don't recall seeing much said about that here, only the typical idea that European cities are better than Halifax on most regards, and that we should try to be more like them. Perhaps I missed these posts, I don't know.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Over 60 years ago, the Young line opened with 11 stops (from Eglinton to Union)

Look at where it is now.

If Haligonians could get their head out of their _ _ _, and build something, they could reap the rewards. If the City could change their master plan to reflect TOD, Halifax could grow.

But alas, they want to stay small town.

Who is "they"?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Who is "they"?

All Haligonians. Event the ones who would never use it.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Over 60 years ago, the Young line opened with 11 stops (from Eglinton to Union)

Look at where it is now.

If Haligonians could get their head out of their _ _ _, and build something, they could reap the rewards. If the City could change their master plan to reflect TOD, Halifax could grow.

But alas, they want to stay small town.

What's TOD? I seem to be missing something.

I agree we should start building something, even a basic Bedford-to-Downtown-rush-hour line and see how it goes, and build on that later. The hardest part of any venture is actually starting it, and we're in a bit of analysis paralysis.

I don't think painting all Haligonians as having their heads in their butts is helpful. Yes, our decision makers are stuck in a holding pattern on this issue, but I think it's because the case for rail is only just BARELY starting to make financial sense.

We're right on the edge - we're almost there, just a little more population growth, just as little more density, just a little more interest in addressing our terrible car culture (I think If halifax was 45-50 times bigger right now, it would be Los Angeles rather than New York), not quite there yet, but so close we can taste it...soon, we will make the leap...but the case is so tentative as yet. Jumping in with both feet is scary when you're only just learning to tread water.

Note that 60 years ago, Toronto was already approaching 1.5 million people.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Over 60 years ago, the Young line opened with 11 stops (from Eglinton to Union)

Look at where it is now.

If Haligonians could get their head out of their _ _ _, and build something, they could reap the rewards. If the City could change their master plan to reflect TOD, Halifax could grow.

But alas, they want to stay small town.

I don't think we WANT to be a small town so much as some people believe that we shouldn't even bother trying to be more metropolitan. It's a bit of a different thing, though the result is the same.

And I hate to be disagreeable, but if you mean that TO's subway has grown from that little Union to Eglinton nub into something big and impressive, well, I kinda disagree--the Yonge line was extended north, and they built Bloor-Danforth, and then that was it until now. They wanted to build a Queen line decades ago, and business owners along Queen Street raised such a fuss about construction disruptions that it was cancelled. They also cancelled the Eglinton line in 95, and it's only getting built now.

The history of transit in Toronto is really a history of under-expansion, lack of ambition, and politicians trying to make everyone feel like they're getting their fair share at the expense of good planning.

I think Vancouver is a better transit model to look toward.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Who is "they"?

Originally Posted by portapetey

What's TOD? I seem to be missing something.

I agree we should start building something, even a basic Bedford-to-Downtown-rush-hour line and see how it goes, and build on that later. The hardest part of any venture is actually starting it, and we're in a bit of analysis paralysis.

I don't think painting all Haligonians as having their heads in their butts is helpful. Yes, our decision makers are stuck in a holding pattern on this issue, but I think it's because the case for rail is only just BARELY starting to make financial sense.

We're right on the edge - we're almost there, just a little more population growth, just as little more density, just a little more interest in addressing our terrible car culture (I think If halifax was 45-50 times bigger right now, it would be Los Angeles rather than New York), not quite there yet, but so close we can taste it...soon, we will make the leap...but the case is so tentative as yet. Jumping in with both feet is scary when you're only just learning to tread water.

TOD - Transit Oriented Development. Basically buildings that are large and close together that support residential and commercial needs. These people usually don't have a need for a vehicle.

The Commuter line suggestion, if implemented, would provide a great step. Then the HRM puts in their Master Plan that those stations become hubs. Within 1km or less of the stations, they make them TOD communities.

Halifax is on the edge... the edge of a precipice. Either do something now, or traffic will just keep getting worse.
Realistically, the Commuter line should be able to be up and running by September.
Then, Spring 2017, start on more local routes. Start with a Transit only bridge and have an LRT connect both downtowns. Continue building LRT/grade separated transit for the next 10 years, opening new routes every 2-3 years.

Change the Master Plan such that TOD is encouraged along those routes.

The problem is, many Haligonians would hate this. The rest of Nova Scotia would be livid.

O, doing this would create good paying jobs in the area. Something the area desperately needs.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

TOD - Transit Oriented Development. Basically buildings that are large and close together that support residential and commercial needs. These people usually don't have a need for a vehicle.

The Commuter line suggestion, if implemented, would provide a great step. Then the HRM puts in their Master Plan that those stations become hubs. Within 1km or less of the stations, they make them TOD communities.

Halifax is on the edge... the edge of a precipice. Either do something now, or traffic will just keep getting worse.
Realistically, the Commuter line should be able to be up and running by September.
Then, Spring 2017, start on more local routes. Start with a Transit only bridge and have an LRT connect both downtowns. Continue building LRT/grade separated transit for the next 10 years, opening new routes every 2-3 years.

Change the Master Plan such that TOD is encouraged along those routes.

The problem is, many Haligonians would hate this. The rest of Nova Scotia would be livid.

O, doing this would create good paying jobs in the area. Something the area desperately needs.

Gottcha, thanks for the clarification.

Overall, I agree with your concept, though I'd not hold out much hope for such an ambitious plan with such aggressive timelines! (And not sure about a transit only bridge - that would need QUITE a salespitch!) For better or for worse (your call which!), I suspect we'll follow a similar path to the one Drybrain has described for Toronto above.

The rest of Nova Scotia would indeed lose its mind.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Again, I also think we should have/can afford all three. All have benefits to our society. I also agree that there seems to be a lot of resistance here for any level of transit above what we already have - other posters have written about this to the point where you can't introduce an idea that hasn't already been covered at least 2 or 3 times, so it seems obvious that we should expect more, but on the public/government side there does not seem to be this shared opinion.

When I first read your original post on the subject I (mistakenly) interpreted it to mean that rather than build the library we should build transit, which is hogwash. There has been so much complaining (mostly from one or two individuals, it appears) about the library cost then it makes me wonder why a greater investment in a convention centre hasn't been commented on by these same posters.

As a side point, when comparing Halifax to European cities, we also need to consider the level of taxation, and whether that would be acceptable to Canadians. I don't recall seeing much said about that here, only the typical idea that European cities are better than Halifax on most regards, and that we should try to be more like them. Perhaps I missed these posts, I don't know.

I agree!

I was just trying to say, if you budget for one thing... you can still budget for the others. That's all. Some people seem to think we shouldn't do the other things based on their self interest, not on what's actually feasible.

At the end of the day, most people don't understand that spending is necessary and it might not always be on the things they want.

I don't think emulating a small european city is a bad idea... it has to be the right one and maybe they could learn something from us.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I agree!


I don't think emulating a small european city is a bad idea... it has to be the right one and maybe they could learn something from us.

When the global warming floods come, can we be Venice?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by portapetey

Gottcha, thanks for the clarification.

Overall, I agree with your concept, though I'd not hold out much hope for such an ambitious plan with such aggressive timelines! (And not sure about a transit only bridge - that would need QUITE a salespitch!) For better or for worse (your call which!), I suspect we'll follow a similar path to the one Drybrain has described for Toronto above.

The rest of Nova Scotia would indeed lose its mind.

How would you propose transit vehicles (Trains or buses) get over the harbour? Mixing them with traffic hasn't worked. Taking away 2 lanes from "the new bridge" would not fly. Turn "the old bridge" into a transit mall would work, but again, people would be outraged. So, that leaves a new connection that needs to be made.

I think Halifax is doing decent, except when it comes to rail.

I am impressed that they have the MetroLink and MetroExpress. The fact they exist and that they are being well used means there is the appetite for transit improvements.

The problem is no one in council seems to want to do anything about it.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

How would you propose transit vehicles (Trains or buses) get over the harbour? Mixing them with traffic hasn't worked. Taking away 2 lanes from "the new bridge" would not fly. Turn "the old bridge" into a transit mall would work, but again, people would be outraged. So, that leaves a new connection that needs to be made.

I think Halifax is doing decent, except when it comes to rail.

I am impressed that they have the MetroLink and MetroExpress. The fact they exist and that they are being well used means there is the appetite for transit improvements.

The problem is no one in council seems to want to do anything about it.

Oh, I'm not the guy with the answers. :-)

I'd toss out the idea of a double decker or double-wide with transit on one level or side, and cars on the other. Not sure if that's even remotely feasible.

I just can't imagine much of anyone in Halifax accepting a third harbour crossing that didn't allow cars at all.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I don't think we WANT to be a small town so much as some people believe that we shouldn't even bother trying to be more metropolitan. It's a bit of a different thing, though the result is the same.

And I hate to be disagreeable, but if you mean that TO's subway has grown from that little Union to Eglinton nub into something big and impressive, well, I kinda disagree--the Yonge line was extended north, and they built Bloor-Danforth, and then that was it until now. They wanted to build a Queen line decades ago, and business owners along Queen Street raised such a fuss about construction disruptions that it was cancelled. They also cancelled the Eglinton line in 95, and it's only getting built now.

The history of transit in Toronto is really a history of under-expansion, lack of ambition, and politicians trying to make everyone feel like they're getting their fair share at the expense of good planning.

I think Vancouver is a better transit model to look toward.

Just as a side note.... Toronto's subway trains have drivers and they strike fairly often to get higher wages. Vancouver's trains don't technically have drivers so there haven't been any strikes as far as I was aware for that.

In terms of city development, I think that Halifax has a lot of the same "ingredients" that Vancouver does. Both cities are coastal, both are close to a U.S border, both are used to export and import goods, both cities have populations located very densely, etc. I could also see Halifax developing a stronger hospitality industry and becoming a powerful metropolis in the Maritimes. Although I believe this vision would require the intervention of the Federal government; they would have to open new trade agreements with Europe, the Caribbean nations, Africa, and the eastern South American nations to really catalyze Halifax's development.

Back to transit.... I said it before but I'm hoping that once you guys really start feeling the impact that your new urban condos are going to have on your streets, you'll definitely be a little more open to grade-separated transit solutions.