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  #221  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 12:08 AM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
So since Keith won't answer my questions, does anyone else have any answers to them?
I already answered your questions. But as Jack Nicholson said

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  #222  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 1:14 AM
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TheNovaScotian TheNovaScotian is offline
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Somehow 13 stories is even too much in this city...



[/QUOTE]

Compared to this?



It isn't even a contest which is the better option here

Last edited by TheNovaScotian; Jan 8, 2016 at 1:19 AM. Reason: typo
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  #223  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 2:17 AM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Somehow 13 stories is even too much in this city...
I'm gonna be that guy again and leap to Halifax's defence on that point. Buildings of this height meet with opposition in these kinds of neighbourhoods anywhere in the country...not a Halifax thing at all.

Honestly, if anything, developers increasingly seem to run the show in Halifax. The number of projects cancelled or dramatically curtailed due to citizen opposition in recent years is...well, I was gonna say small, but is there a single example? Even if there are a handful, there are far more examples to the contrary.
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  #224  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 2:28 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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(edit: noting that this forum tends to lean left, there's a good chance you've inadvertently raised my credibility among most others here. so... thanks?)
I don't think your credibility was in question other than by the person you're arguing with. Now, you may lose some credibility points by trying to argue, which is basically p*ssing in the wind, but I think you can be forgiven. We've all taken the bait at one point or another. ;-)
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  #225  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 2:34 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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I'm gonna be that guy again and leap to Halifax's defence on that point. Buildings of this height meet with opposition in these kinds of neighbourhoods anywhere in the country...not a Halifax thing at all.

Honestly, if anything, developers increasingly seem to run the show in Halifax. The number of projects cancelled or dramatically curtailed due to citizen opposition in recent years is...well, I was gonna say small, but is there a single example? Even if there are a handful, there are far more examples to the contrary.
Agreed. The ongoing narrative that Halifax is just the worst place ever, anywhere gets rather draining.

As I've pointed out here many times, Halifax might appear height-phobic on the surface, but somehow we've managed to build probably one of the biggest stocks of mid-and-highrise buildings of any city of comparable size / geography on the continent.

I wish people could learn to appreciate just how well Halifax is doing, even while cheering for more.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 4:11 PM
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Your responses bear the stamp of an orange Kool-Aid addict yourself, so I will not attempt to reason with you. You have reaped what you have sewn.
Not to be a stickler, but we reap what we sow, not sew.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 4:24 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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Not to be a stickler, but we reap what we sow, not sew.
Well - what if we sow cotton, and then use it to sew a white flag to wave when utterly defeated by the brilliant arguments being presented?
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  #228  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 4:59 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Not to be a stickler, but we reap what we sow, not sew.
Pedant!

Since that is your best response, I can only presume that my argument is otherwise unassailable.
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  #229  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 5:06 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Not to be a stickler, but we reap what we sow, not sew.
Or, we could say we rip what we sew....
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  #230  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 5:28 PM
JET JET is offline
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Pedant!

Since that is your best response, I can only presume that my argument is otherwise unassailable.
"Pedant"; pot/kettle
I actually think that it was a pretty good response, although perhaps not my best.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 6:42 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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I already answered your questions. But as Jack Nicholson said
You very clearly didn't, but whatever. Let's move on.
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  #232  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 6:45 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Honestly, if anything, developers increasingly seem to run the show in Halifax. The number of projects cancelled or dramatically curtailed due to citizen opposition in recent years is...well, I was gonna say small, but is there a single example? Even if there are a handful, there are far more examples to the contrary.
There have been occasional examples, like the Port of Wines proposal (I don't remember if that was even really due to citizen opposition or if it was just kind of arbitrarily not-approved), but cases like these are very much the minority these days.
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  #233  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 7:04 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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There have been occasional examples, like the Port of Wines proposal (I don't remember if that was even really due to citizen opposition or if it was just kind of arbitrarily not-approved), but cases like these are very much the minority these days.
As I recall it was something like double the allowable height. I don't even get the logic behind proposing such a thing. We can argue about whether the height rules are too restrictive (in the Port of Wines case, I do think more height should be allowed on that site) but when developers propose things they know are in flagrant violation of a recently adopted design manual, I mean, whaddya expect?
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  #234  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 7:40 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I'm gonna be that guy again and leap to Halifax's defence on that point. Buildings of this height [URL="http://calgaryherald.com/business/commercial-real-estate/architect-quits-controversial-kensington-development-headed-to-council-monday"]meet with opposition
There was quite a back story to the opposition on this one and history involved. Hillhurst is an area I have done a lot of work in; two of the new buildings going up I was involved in.

The Area Redevelopment Plan took 3 years and had lots of input from residents the problem is that once it was passed they felt it was set in stone. This particular site had already been redesignated (rezoned) to go up to 8 stories and the application was asking for even more. The 8 stories was okay under the plan - but more was beyond the plan.

There was also some character issues of the property owner - I won't get into them but needless to say a lot of 'trust' issues. I'd be happy to give you the more 'non-politically correct' comments in a private message.
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  #235  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2016, 8:51 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post

There was also some character issues of the property owner - I won't get into them but needless to say a lot of 'trust' issues. I'd be happy to give you the more 'non-politically correct' comments in a private message.
Sure. I always try to keep abreast of my hometown developments...
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  #236  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2016, 1:47 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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It depends who you mean by "city staff" - they don't think as a bloc. In my experience the younger/newer staff members that I have met are really supportive of initiatives like HRMBD and generally wish there were more things like that and that they'd go farther. Some of the older staff who have been part of the system for decades might fit your description, but even then, certainly not all. HRM's urban design department is quite progressive and generally the staff wish they could do MORE "progressive, different-from-status-quo" stuff, not less. Most of them are happy to be rid of the "hard and soft power in development decisions about height" because having to constantly second-guess and negotiate things was extremely tedious and from what I understand basically everyone hated having to do that all the time.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally framing it this way or if it's just how I'm interpreting it, but the Centre Plan hasn't sat dormant so that staff can try one-off approaches, they are trying one-off approaches because the Centre Plan is not complete. I forget the exact reason why it stalled, but two major factors were that resources were spread thin and that there was some conflict between the direction CP was going and other planning goals (obviously not ALL other planning goals, but enough that it was a problem).

The bid was by Housing Nova Scotia, not the NDP government. Not the same thing. In 2014 Lydon Lynch Architects were brought on board to do preliminary designs for the development (which included extensive public consultation). To my knowledge the designs are not complete. Source

And I'm not really familiar enough with what has/had been proposed for Bloomfield to comment on which bid was better, but can you give any concrete examples of how the other bids were objectively "far superior"? Or do you just mean that you preferred them?

As an aside (and directed at everyone, not just you), I would think twice before you call "city staff" things like "idiotic". Most of the ones I know are very smart and progressive and generally wish that policy was more progressive as well, and generally want most of the same things that we want (although "what we want" as a group here seems to be an increasingly fleeting concept). There's a reasonably good chance that some of them follow this forum regularly, and it's pretty discouraging to have your efforts dismissed as idiocy by people who don't actually know what you've been doing.
A few points.

First, I have no doubts there are *some* members of HRM planning-- likely younger ones-- who want to be more progressive. But I would say that the vast majority of the bureaucrats there-- like most bureaucrats-- are resistant to change. They choose the path of least resistance, and that means big shake-ups in procedure, process, planning, which often mean more uncertainty and work and risk, will be generally advised against by staff and resisted. A good example of this is how despite direction from Council for significant Transit shake ups and changes, in the end, the bureaucracy came back with tweaks. Another example is how staff has constantly and consistently recommended against LTE or light transit, often using questionable reasoning. But of course, they're not going to recommend a risky and costly endeavour. They'll leave that to Council. Also, my understanding is that part of the reason why Filmore jumped ship after getting HRMxD was passed, but before Centre Plan was completed, was because trying to push the bureaucracy to get HRMxD itself done was a nightmare. A lot of resistance because let's be frank-- HRMxD represented significant changes in ways planning was done in that office and in City at large. He did a huge thing in getting the HRMxD passed-- what a godsend it's been!-- but I wish he had stayed to complete CP. Don't blame him for leaving for other projects.


Second, sorry, but the Centre Plan has absolutely sat dormant. HRM Staff were FIRST specifically directed by Council to develop a "Regional Centre Urban Design Study" in 2006! The first component of that study, was HRMxD, passed in 2009. The other key component of that study was a "HRMxD Centre Plan". After HRMxD was passed, the Council specifically directed staff to continue with the next phase of the Centre Plan.

That the plan has sit dormant is self evidence from the City's own document and adopted timeline. This document indicates that Phase 1 would mean that the "Centre Plan Framework" would be completed by September 2012:

https://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/SCcped/documents/Item6.1RegPlanandHRMbyDesignreview.pdf

Guess what? The City only issued a Call for Proposals to hire a consultant to begin the process in developing a Centre Plan Framework in September of last year!

Here it is: http://novascotia.ca/tenders/pt_files/tenders/P15-328.pdf

So, we're actually at least 3 years behind schedule, probably more. By the City's own documents and timelines.


Third, Imagine Bloomfield has turned into an absolute disaster and there are two culprits in this: an NDP Provincial Government playing politics with downtown housing and City Staff for likely being cowtowed or suckered into letting them do so, ruining an excellent community developed project plan.

Let's be clear about one thing -- Housing Nova Scotia was launched by the NDP Government (a new version of the previous arms length development corporation) and the aim was clearly political. Can't remember how many press conferences Dexter held on point, but there were many. Here's one: http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1151047-province-invests-in-new-100m-halifax-housing-project

Bloomfield was part of NDP party platform: http://nsndp.ca/families/bloomfield-centre

So, yes: Housing NS was political from top to bottom, giving the then NDP Government another prong in their urban election strategy. And so was their involvement with Bloomfield.

The NDP politicized Imagine Bloomfield. So they're to blame. But so are City Staff. How? The CFP criteria for selecting the winning bid were skewed towards weighting financial considerations as far more important than other criteria you would think would be the priority: creativity, design, and compliance with Imagine Bloomfield vision.

Here's a great breakdown of the debacle:

http://halifaxbloggers.ca/halifaxlovehat...ent-on-the-back-for-bloomfield-just-yet/

Excerpt:

Quote:
Quote:
Consistency with the Bloomfield vision, mix and balance of uses across the site emphasizing creative convergence, quality of community and cultural space, a variety of housing types and densities, commitment to incorporating quality affordable housing, viable mix of commercial space, creativity in design and focus on quality urban design and built form, time-frame for initiating and completing the plan, etc.

This was worth 35 points out of a total possible 100, which was the criteria with the second highest weighting. The highest weighting was “financial”, or, the amount the bidder was willing to pay. That was worth 50 points.

The Nova Scotia Housing Development Corporation (NSHDC; renamed as Housing Nova Scotia on Friday) was one of three organizations with a qualified bid for the project, and the only publicly-funded one in the race. The two others, Dexel and Killam Properties, are private developers. NSHDC ended up winning the bid, but not because they showed much understanding of the vision that Imagine Bloomfield worked so hard to get into the proposal.

According to a press release issued by Imagine Bloomfield at the time of the decision (which has now been removed from their website, but luckily, the Halifax Media Co-op carried the release in full), NSHDC actually scored the lowest on this dimension among all of the bidders. NSHDC just outbid the others, apparently by a margin large enough to offset their rather large deficit in the “understanding the vision” criteria.



So when the province says it’s investing $100M into the Bloomfield site, it’s really saying that it paid $100M of public dollars to outbid private developers who were willing to pay for the site; private developers who were better able to show that they understood the community’s vision.*

So far all that’s happened is a shifting of public dollars from one purse to another, and a nine-month-late promise to fulfill the conditions of an RFP that we, the community, originally helped to set.
And here's a damning update on that blogpost:

Quote:
UPDATE (Nov 18 2015): Here we are over two years later, and we’re scarcely further ahead. As Councillor Waye Mason pointed out on Facebook this morning, if the province can’t make it happen, let HRM sell the property to someone else.

So, to recap:

(1) HRM staff resist change.
(2) Centre Plan has, in fact, lay dormant and is years behind schedule
(3) Imagine Bloomfield is a disaster, and we should blame the NDP for politicizing a development that the community wished to be done privately, and the City Staff for selecting their garbage bid and enabling their politicking.

I'm out.

Last edited by counterfactual; Jan 9, 2016 at 11:15 PM.
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  #237  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2016, 3:57 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
So, to recap:

(1) HRM staff resist change.
(2) Centre Plan has, in fact, lay dormant and is years behind schedule
(3) Imagine Bloomfield is a disaster, and we should blame the NDP for politicizing a development that the community wished to be done privately, and the City Staff for selecting their garbage bid and enabling their politicking.

I'm out.
Excellent post. Hope you come back to respond to the inevitable sniping from the Big Orange loyalists though.
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  #238  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2016, 5:44 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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*snip* (to save space)
Very well written and well-thought-out post, as usual.

I can't help but be left with the feeling that our provincial and municipal governments, at both elected and staff-level, are very broken.
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  #239  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2016, 2:08 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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Excellent post. Hope you come back to respond to the inevitable sniping from the Big Orange loyalists though.
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Very well written and well-thought-out post, as usual.

I can't help but be left with the feeling that our provincial and municipal governments, at both elected and staff-level, are very broken.
Thanks, both!

I also think our Prov/City bureaucracies are broken...
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  #240  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2016, 2:19 AM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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First, I have no doubts there are *some* members of HRM planning-- likely younger ones-- who want to be more progressive. But [b]I would say that the vast majority of the bureaucrats there-- like most bureaucrats-- are resistant to change.
I don't think it's the vast majority of them. What basis do you have to think it's the vast majority?

Something to keep in mind is that a lot of people get into the field of planning precisely because they want to be in a position where they can make positive changes and have an effect on the future. Of course some will become jaded/entrenched/archaic, but I would guess that there is a slight bias against this compared to "other bureaucracies". Then again maybe I just don't really have enough experience operating within a bureaucracy to gauge this accurately

All I can really say is that my impression of the municipal bureaucracy used to be that it was full of fairly conservative individuals who were kind of stuck in the 1970s. The vast majority of city staff that I have met though are not like this at all (though a few are - and maybe the majority of staff, who I haven't met, are all like this. My impression is this is not really the case though).

Quote:
A good example of this is how despite direction from Council for significant Transit shake ups and changes, in the end, the bureaucracy came back with tweaks. Another example is how staff has constantly and consistently recommended against LTE or light transit, often using questionable reasoning.
LRT is interesting because again, I've heard many staff members candidly speak enthusiastically about the idea of LRT or something similar here, but all grudgingly admit that it's not really on the table right now. The two biggest factors against it seem to be a lack of funding for transit, and a very serious and often crippling lack of coordination between departments. I also get the impression that the head of Metro Transit (the guy who was in those "explaining transfer-based networks" videos) doesn't have very much in common with most of his staff, and he is the one directing the show. I think if the highest-paid people at Metro Transit were actually expected to use transit on a regular basis, things would change pretty quickly and radically.

Quote:
Second, sorry, but the Centre Plan has absolutely sat dormant.
Agreed, I just got the implication (not sure if this was intended) that you meant it's sat dormant because staff would prefer to stick with the status quo. I'm quite confident this is not the case. FWIW I've heard that the "new" iteration of the Centre Plan will be completely different from what was being proposed before. This is not great in terms of procedure, and I am as frustrated with the timeline as anyone, but the silver lining is that the results might ultimately be better (if there was a compelling reason to completely change the plan's approach and content then I would hope that the new plan is better than the abandoned one).

Quote:
Let's be clear about one thing -- Housing Nova Scotia was launched by the NDP Government (a new version of the previous arms length development corporation) and the aim was clearly political. Can't remember how many press conferences Dexter held on point, but there were many. Here's one: http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1151047-province-invests-in-new-100m-halifax-housing-project
This is all quite interesting to me because I was unaware of a lot of this - I was living out of province when a lot of these announcements were being made and in many cases living in isolated worksites (often without internet, etc) so I wasn't really able to follow what was going on back home.

My perspective on Housing NS is completely different. I first learned about it when I was doing a study on the physical condition of rental properties constructed mid-century in Spryfield and how changing policies/funding over the years had stacked the cards against them being maintained well. A couple of the findings were:

Most of the privately held apartment buildings in that area were constructed during a period where there were major pressures on the existing housing supply, so the federal government (through what is now CMHC) gave a LOT of financial support for landlords/developers to essentially put up as many apartment buildings as possible (as well as other supports to make sure they were maintained well). Over the next couple decades the incentives were cut and landlords were basically forced to raise rent or skimp out on maintenance.
By the early 1980s, most of the relevant programs no longer existed, and within this segment of the housing stock, properties either began to decline considerably or become significantly less affordable. In the 1990s, public housing, which until then had been under federal jurisdiction (and funding) was transferred to the provinces.

Anyway, by 2014 (when I did the study), most of the privately owned apartment buildings from that era in Spryfield were showing exterior signs of deterioration, some more significant than others, but few were as well-maintained as comparable properties on the Peninsula (where rents are higher), and there were some fairly high-profile cases where structural/infrastructural problems with them were coming to light. All of the Metropolitan Regional Housing Authority (ie. public housing) properties, built during the same era, were remarkably in much better shape overall.

Apparently this had not been the case a couple years earlier, but there had been a major provincial-federal investment in the area's public housing over the last couple years. IIRC, by the time of the actual renovations, Housing NS would have been the relevant provincial agency (although I could be wrong here).

The problem was that the private landlords were still in a position where they could not justify properly maintaining the properties without raising rents (the current rents wouldn't have paid for the investment, I guess, especially because there is so much deferred maintenance at this point). HOWEVER, Housing NS had actually launched programs dealing with this exact problem, among others, shortly before I'd begun the study. All of these programs were quite new and hadn't really had a chance to manifest yet, but based on the findings of my report they are actually quite crucial for allowing low-income people to live in apartment buildings that aren't literally crumbling, leaking sewage, etc while still being able to afford their rent. Without them, within a few years many of Spryfield's residents would essentially be living in third-world conditions, and while newer, I could see the same issues coming up in places like Highfield Park given another decade or so, and Highfield is at such a large scale that this would be really, really bad. Actually adjacent Pinecrest is probably pretty similar to the run-down parts of Spryfield already.

Unfortunately, the wait lists for public housing are huge, because very little new public housing has been created here since the 70s (so currently a lot of people need to be housed in very-low-rent market housing). Prior to the formation of Housing NS, there were no provincial-level programs in place to deal with this kind of thing, so the impression that I got (without having seen any of the "gimmick for the NDP" type news reports) was that prior to Housing NS there simply wasn't a provincial department/agency with the mandate to really do this sort of thing. Again, I could be totally wrong about that.

Long story short, I am glad that Housing NS exists, and I know very little of its backstory but support (generally) its programs. The connection with Bloomfield is again something that I can't really say I understand very well at this point. Almost everything I know about the Bloomfield project I have learned in this thread (ie. 1034-1056 Wellington Street)


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