Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[elly63]

Originally Posted by welkin

now whether the argos become yuppie cool, well that will depend on MLSE's marketing ability.

fyp

[elly63]

It's going to be real interesting to see which posters here end up looking stupid on what will happen to the Argos in 2016.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Very interesting article from the Toronto Star (not some Calgary-based group with its own agenda) describing the sports popularity dynamic in Ontario. Aside from the typical arrogant boosterism from the Argos rep Moore, everything else seems quite balanced.

How is it arrogant? Everyone here knows who has the ill informed, condescending agenda.

[esquire]

That was an interesting Star article. No question the rankings are influenced by on-field success in 2015... there is no way that the Jays dwarf the Leafs in terms of actual long-term sustained fan interest.

As for the Argos numbers, if you're Bell/Tanenbaum you have to feel pretty good about where things are headed. I mean, even at their bottomed out worst after three years of disinterested absentee ownership and a landlord that did its best to kill the team off completely, the Argos are still even with TFC.

The reality is that TFC and the Argos will likely be side dishes in the Toronto sports buffet for years to come, but all both teams really need to do is to fill BMO Field. Neither one will ever dominate the market.

It's a bit like the Rangers in NYC... they are a bit higher in stature relative to TFC/Argos in Toronto, but anyone who flips through a few local NYC dailies will tell you that they don't rank anywhere near the Yanks/Giants/Mets/Jets/Knicks in the overall NYC sports firmament. But the old saying holds that there are 18,000 Rangers fans in New York and they're all at MSG for every game... that's basically the model for the Argos and TFC.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

The Argos are going to be doing great now, they already have sold 9000 season tickets 3 weeks ago and their goal is 20,000 by the start of the 2016 season and should be on pace to meet that goal and sell out BMO every game..

Is this an improvement over recent years?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Very interesting article from the Toronto Star (not some Calgary-based group with its own agenda) describing the sports popularity dynamic in Ontario. Aside from the typical arrogant boosterism from the Argos rep Moore, everything else seems quite balanced. Blue Jays and the Leafs at the top in our city and province in terms of popularity with Raptors third. TFC and Argos are neck and neck province-wide at 2 percent each with TFC naturally getting the edge in Toronto where Argos have virtually zero support in the young demographic:

-------------------------------
Toronto Star Sports

Poll shows sports fans warmed up to Blue Jays but coldly indifferent to Argos
http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sports/20...ays-but-coldly-indifferent-to-argos.html

Earlier this year, the Star commissioned Forum Research to survey Ontarians about various aspects of their lives, including their favourite sports teams.

Larry MacDougal / Special to the Star

Tyler Richard is a die-hard Argos fan who lives in Calgary. A year-end poll shows Ontario sports fans remain largely indifferent to the Argos. But Richard remains hopeful that will change when the team moves into BMO Field next season.
Published on Dec 31 2015

Morgan Campbell
Staff Reporter

According to pollsters, folks like Tyler Richard are about as common as unicorns.

When Forum Research polled 1,001 Ontarians about their favourite sports teams, only two per cent said they cheered primarily for the Toronto Argonauts compared with 28 per cent for the Blue Jays. And among the 18-34 demographic marketers covet, 23 per cent are Jays supporters while not a single respondent identified themselves first and foremost as an Argos fan. Not one.

The pollsters should have called Richard, who moved to Calgary last year and brought his lifelong love of the Argos with him.

He attended his first Argos game in 1990 and hasn’t stopped supporting the club. His new friends in Calgary tease him about his clothes — double blue every day —and tattoo (“Argos” above his shoulder blade). At 33, he fits within the age group the Argos are fighting to attract and also blends in well in his adopted city, where CFL fans of all ages are the norm.
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But Richard knows he’s an outlier amongst his peers in Toronto, and the poll results have him a little worried for his hometown team, especially with the 2016 Grey Cup being held in Toronto, a city that appears quite indifferent to the CFL.

“The CFL feels like a small-town league in a big city,” says Richard, a sales rep for athletic shoe manufacturer Saucony. “(My friends) think I’m a little kooky, but I’m an against-the-grain kind of guy.”

Earlier this year, the Star commissioned Forum Research to survey Ontarians about various aspects of their lives, including their favourite sports teams.

Some poll results were predictable. Two per cent of respondents identified Toronto FC as their primary rooting interest, tying them with the Argos and placing both teams well behind the city’s big three franchises.

But there were some surprises — six per cent of fans root for the Raptors, 12 per cent back the Leafs and 28 per cent said the Blue Jays were their main sports team. Blue Jays support was strongest in Toronto, where 39 per cent of respondents support them, and weakest in eastern Ontario where Ottawa Senators fans (26 per cent) predominate.

The main factor driving the Blue Jays’ surge in popularity? On-field success.

The president of the polling company says the Jays’ run to the American League Championship Series placed the club front-of-mind for sports fans across the province, while the Leafs retain fans in spite of lacklustre results.

“It’s not true (anymore) that this is a hardcore hockey town,” says Forum Research president Lorne Bozinoff. “I assumed this was a Leafs town (but) this town is starved for a winner.”

Still, the poll contains encouraging results for CFL stakeholders.

Four per cent of respondents listed the Hamilton Tiger-Cats as their favourite team. Among residents of the 905, that figure jumps to nine per cent, placing them just ahead of the Raptors, who registered eight per cent.

And in eastern Ontario, the Ottawa RedBlacks (15 per cent) outranked every team besides the Sens.

But conquering the Toronto market remains difficult.

“It’s a challenge, but it’s a challenge for every other league out there,” says CFL communications director Paulo Senra.

Argos executive Sara Moore says unique circumstances likely swayed this year’s poll results. Just as a strong season boosted the Blue Jays’ numbers, the Argos suffered from events they couldn’t control.

The club played its first five games on the road last season while the Rogers Centre prepared to host the Pan Am Games opening ceremony. And October scheduling conflicts with Jays playoff games forced the Argos to play “home” games in Hamilton and Ottawa.

With so many events aligning to keep the Argos out of town for long stretches, Moore isn’t surprised the club polled so weakly. She says she would be more worried if the club had played a normal schedule and still failed to capture sports fans’ attention.

“We made it really hard to be an Argos fan last year,” says Moore, the Argos senior vice-president of business operations. “I know what I’m starting with and where I can go. That was rock-bottom and we’re never going to have all those things go against us again.”

Moore, Richard and the league all hope the Argos’ move to a remodeled BMO Field will re-energize the club’s current fans and help it welcome new ones.

The Argos averaged 12,430 spectators at the Rogers Centre last season, well below the league average of 24,737. And in a stadium with more than 28,000 seats, those gatherings seemed tiny. Meanwhile, a lack of parking precluded the pre-game tailgate parties central to the game day experience elsewhere.

Moving to the city-owned, MLSE-managed BMO Field makes the Argos and Toronto FC roommates and rivals.

A year from now, Moore says, the Argos should post stronger poll numbers than TFC, which earned two per cent of votes even after league MVP Sebastian Giovinco powered the club to the post-season. She says a season with a balanced schedule, on-field success and BMO Field’s fan-friendly atmosphere could make the Argos as popular as the Raptors if a similar poll is conducted next autumn.

As for Richard, he will be at BMO Field. He gave up his season tickets when he moved to Calgary but has plans to attend the Argos inaugural game at BMO.

“What the Argos have now is that feeling of Canadiana, that feeling of being outdoors,” Richard says. “It’s become a lifelong passion, but it got me before I was 10 years old.”

The only thing that really surprised me is the Blue Jays so far ahead of the Leafs.

BTW the modest popularity of the Ti-Cats in the 905 (which includes Hamilton of course but also many Toronto suburbs) shows it's as much if not more an Argos problem as it is a problem with the CFL in general.

[elly63]

What a difference a year can make. From a CTV TalkBackTO poll

April 12/2014

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is this an improvement over recent years?

Some people were saying it was 4000 last year, but who knows. Rumour now is 10k 50 dollar season ticket deposits have been sold before the new owners have taken over, their ST campaign yet to start, and the seating plan yet to be finalized (coming soon) and no corporate sales started yet.

The good vibes are out there with Copeland and Moore. They seem confident they know the market and how to go get it with help from a template from Ottawa and the ticketing/marketing/sponsorship might of MLSE behind them. These guys have been planning this for a while and it seems they have their primary, secondary and tertiary markets figured out.

With the league, Copeland and Moore were intimately involved with the Ottawa plan. I was surprised to learn that Jeff Hunt initially turned down the offer to be involved. Then over the proverbial napkin, they (OSEG) sketched out how you could put any old sport in the Lansdowne area and make it work, and that's what they did.

[blueandgoldguy]

In the next few years, if Flames' ownership does not make any headway with their arena proposal, I wonder if we will see some subtle threats of relocation similar to the situation in Edmonton when Katz made a trip down to Seattle to catch a ball game - hinting at a potential negotiation with private/public investors for a new arena in Seattle and a potential move of the Oilers to the area. The move back-fired, of course, as case was lambasted by the media and local populace in Edmonton.

But I have to wonder with NHL expansion on the shelf for the forseeable future in addition to the strong likelihood that any struggling American hockey team like Phoenix would be relocated to another city in the US (ie Portland, Las Vegas), if ownership in Calgary would look longingly eastward at the new 18,000 seat arena in Quebec City as an option for their team. Maybe make a trip to La Belle Province to watch a Remparts game and "check things out" at the Videotron Centre. They would not have to worry about securing a $200 million loan for a new arena nor would they have to worry about a ticket tax as the building has already been bought and paid for. Something to think about.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The only thing that really surprised me is the Blue Jays so far ahead of the Leafs.

It's timing, in the poll from a year ago I posted, it was tacked on at the end of a Blue Jays article.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

In the next few years, if Flames' ownership does not make any headway with their arena proposal, I wonder if we will see some subtle threats of relocation

Can't see it, especially when one of the city's primary structures on its wish list is the fieldhouse. It'll get done after the usual BS wrangling. They've found a way everywhere else under likely more difficult conditions.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by thurmas

The Argos are going to be doing great now, they already have sold 9000 season tickets 3 weeks ago and their goal is 20,000 by the start of the 2016 season and should be on pace to meet that goal and sell out BMO every game.

My biggest concern is the slow but steady decline in support for the BC Lions with Braley still owning that team it keeps them in the dark ages.

Yeah I hope he sells that team but he's gonna want an arm and a leg for them so I don't see them going anywhere. BC place, beautiful as it is needs to be slightly reconfigured. It's too big for Vancouver..too many seats not enough premium seating. I think loge areas would do it wonders. Also tarping off the endzones or a creative way of dissolving some of those seats. Ive always that about them removing or changing the structure of the precast in the zones to party decks or just open concourses on the upper deck. Also to come up with a clever way to block off the very top rows of the upper deck where last 5-8 rows of seats intrude back into the building. Even a retractable roll up canvas that can be lifted for the bigger events. BC place would be a beautiful 40,000 seat building

[Riise]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Very interesting article from the Toronto Star (not some Calgary-based group with its own agenda) describing the sports popularity dynamic in Ontario.

I'm only a casual Stampeders fan so I don't think it would be accurate to say I have some sort of pro-CFL agenda. If anything, my casual support shows that the article fails to prove that the Argos have no hope. If a similar study was completed in Alberta, I'd identify as a Flames fan and so too would a majority of Stamps season ticket holders. My agenda is to show that it is silly to think Toronto cannot support numerous sporting clubs and Torontonians can only support one of their teams. Jane Jacobs stressed how city diversity is blessing yet some people treat it like a curse.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's a bit like the Rangers in NYC... they are a bit higher in stature relative to TFC/Argos in Toronto, but anyone who flips through a few local NYC dailies will tell you that they don't rank anywhere near the Yanks/Giants/Mets/Jets/Knicks in the overall NYC sports firmament. But the old saying holds that there are 18,000 Rangers fans in New York and they're all at MSG for every game... that's basically the model for the Argos and TFC.

Totally agree, the Rangers are iconic in New York and all the Argos have to do is find their niche for the future and they don't have to convert the whole GTA. The latter is something the naysayers seem to want to force on the Argos when it is totally unnecessary.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Some people just can't imagine anything other than the status quo. I'm sure some people like Berklon in Ottawa and Montreal probably figured that the CFL was never coming back and would never be successful if it did. These kinds of people think that the Argos will never experience a resurgence and will forever be stuck with their numbers from the off-field catastrophe of a season that was 2015.

I find it hard to believe that people in Toronto are soooo much more sophisticated when it comes to football tastes (and tastes in general, with all the associated pretentions) compared to Montrealers especially.

Yeah, I know that there are more pro sports options in Toronto than in Montreal but keep in mind also that the Alouettes resurgence began when the Expos were still in town. For a number of years the Alouettes were actually way more popular than the Expos and of course there is the little matter of Montrealers basically kissing off and killing off a team that still played in the best baseball league in the world.

None of which is to say that the Alouettes are the hottest ticket in town. They aren't. But they aren't derided either just for being in the CFL and no one considers it abnormal that on all Quebec sportscasts the lead football story is always the Alouettes game when they are playing.

And this is in one the most ''poseur'' (self-styled) sophisticated cities in the country.

[Acajack]

I have to say I don't really buy the old yarn about ''the absolute best'' leagues and that simply being what some people want.

I mean, MLS does not get derided and how it is ranked globally among soccer leagues? Not even close to the top.

Many of the people who love MLS are the same ones who slam the CFL for being second-rate. Whereas if MLS were second-rate in global soccer it would be quite happy with that position.

No, what we have here is good old fashioned Canadian conditioning and fetishizing US stuff as usual. I mean, we're all affected by this to some degree. I am the first one to admit it about myself.

But please, don't tell me if someday the KHL became a stronger league than the NHL that we'd all of a sudden swear off the NHL because there was now a ''better'' hockey league out there.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have to say I don't really buy the old yarn about ''the absolute best'' leagues and that simply being what some people want.
I mean, MLS does not get derided and how it is ranked globally among soccer leagues? Not even close to the top.Many of the people who love MLS are the same ones who slam the CFL for being second-rate. Whereas if MLS were second-rate in global soccer it would be quite happy with that position.

The MLS is very much regarded as a second rate league by the European soccer community. But since it's #1 in North America for some reason MLS fans think they are superior to CFL fans who indeed cheer for a second rate product when compared to the NFL. Does that really make the 2 leagues so different? Just because the big boys in soccer are on a different continent you're a better second rate product than other second rate products? I'll never understand the posturing between CFL and MLS fans. The MLS losses money almost league wide so to brag about the revenue potential is useless. I hope the CFL expands to at least 1-2 more markets in Canada (halifax,QC) 12-14 teams in later on, Round 2 of the southern expansion would really take away that bush league image the CFL has for people who don't support it.

league attendance average
MLS-21,109
CFL-24,737

[Migs]

Originally Posted by elly63

It's going to be real interesting to see which posters here end up looking stupid on what will happen to the Argos in 2016.

What's funny to me is how 8 months ago the Blue Jays were an afterthought in Toronto. Argos will do well with a facility that doesn't intentionally hinder their success.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I have often said, I like the CFL but I think it would be better and more fun and exciting to follow if more Canadians got into it.

This is true of many other aspects of Canadian culture BTW.

That's what I've always found so puzzling. It's us who determine how great or lousy it is. There's nothing wrong with Canadian football or the CFL. One only need go see a game in Regina, Hamilton, Winnipeg, or Ottawa to realize that.

The Toronto Argonauts will be as big a deal as Torontonians make it. The product on the field has no less entertainment value than football anywhere else in Canada/US. It's the fans that make it what it is. Ohio State Buckeye football is a big deal because 110,000 people show up, not because the football is better. And because it's a big deal other things happen that make it an even bigger deal: marching bands, tailgating, pep rallies, pre game show, post game, etc.

The Argos aren't a big deal in Toronto because we don't support it and we don't support it because no one's at the game or talking about it. It's a ridiculous circle. Are Torontonians under the impression that the NFL just happened over night? It is what it is because Americans built it into what it is today over many decades. Need I remind people that the University of Toronto had higher average attendance than the NFL in 1950. And no that's not a typo.

The only things in the control of head office (besides the business end) is the stadium, allowing tailgating, hiring marching bands, and the product on the field. If they get all that right, the rest is up to us. We'll have no one but ourselves to blame if the Argos don't recover.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by osmo

This post was more to refer to warning folks who are not local to Toronto in commenting about the market place here. Toronto is a odd and a broken market for football. There isn't some sleeping fan base of Argos fans here which is why many are saying the same thing I am in that after the honeymoon period of a new BMO, things will return back to how they have been.

The market needs a full reboot which means going after going children and growing them into fans. There are few fans under the age of 40, and next to none downtown where over 100k people live. The Blue Jays fueled their revival of tapping into the yuppies who live downtown, I see no links that the Argos can do the same.

Many young yuppies who are diehard football fans bet on games and this keep up with NFL and NCAA, they go down to Buffalo for games and many go to Ann Arbour to watch games in the Big House. To them trying to peddle the meager Argos as a equivalent to the experience of Michigan football or a Bills game is a non-starter, they won't take you seriously.

This broken market is the same reason the Bills flopped here. My friends from Sask were giddy for NFL in Toronto and many made the trip, Toronto folks knew it was a bait and switch in a weaker version of the NFL experience at triple the price! Toronto can't recreate tailgating and it does not have the relaxed atmosphere of central Canada that make CFL game days a important cultural event for the city. All it has is older, mostly white, male fans, who live in Vaughn.

How will the CFL reboot this to include the minorities in the city who equal 65% of the population?

How about the transients from elsewhere who already have CFL teams?

How about the yuppies who have money but view the CFL as not credible?

When you bring up those realities all the league and the uniformed folks do is trot out the flawed TV numbers that include a catchment area that stretches to London Ontario, essentially useless.

In the end there is no Argos market here in Toronto and that can be blessing and a curse depending on how Bell approaches it.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but definitely not the last sentence. The crux of it is that the 18-45 demographic in Toronto is a lost cause. The 18-45 crowd are never coming back in any significant numbers. They need to hold on to the die hards they have now and invest heavily in the under 18 demographic. Make the game day experience everything football game day is supposed to be and get them there in big numbers from Game #1 at BMO Field.

Tailgating must happen, it must be authentic, and it can be done. In the end it will be fan driven and it must start with the 18 and under set.... so it's going to be a 20-25 year build out. They're wasting valuable resources if they try to lure people who've already made up their mind about Canadian football and the CFL.