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  #4281  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
I don't think there are any football fans that are avoiding the CFL because they're "holding out" for an NFL team. They're just watching what they like and ignoring what they don't like. There's no ulterior motive involved.
Doesn't matter in the end. The TV audience is there. All they need is fans to show up (which they will) It would be nice to have all of Toronto behind them but as TFC has proven you don't need that. All you need is a small loyal following for off field success. If the Argos can pack BMO game in game out who cares about how many fans they "don't have". Merch revenue isn't gonna make or break this team. Although the new ownership is doing an incredible job of securing it's footprint in The sports meca that is Toronto. I have a feeling the south endzone of BMO will have have a second tier of seats to keep up to Argo and TFC demand sooner than later.
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Last edited by Oilkountry; Dec 31, 2015 at 3:58 PM.
     
     
  #4282  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
Doesn't matter in the end. The TV audience is there. All they need is fans to show up (which they will)
I disagree. Cord-cutters are going to hurt TV viewing for the CFL since it's stuck on TSN. And after the initial novelty of BMO wears off, the Argos will still have poor attendance (ie. it's not the stadium) and little presence in Toronto. But we'll have to wait and see.
     
     
  #4283  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
I disagree. Cord-cutters are going to hurt TV viewing for the CFL since it's stuck on TSN. And after the initial novelty of BMO wears off, the Argos will still have poor attendance (ie. it's not the stadium) and little presence in Toronto. But we'll have to wait and see.
what are you basing this off of? I feel like ive given a fair amount of info to back my theories here. so I wanna understand yours. Are you basing this off of the last 2 years attendance? Are you just a soccer fan trolling? Are you naturally a pessimist? I wanna know what makes you believe that Montreal,Hamilton,Ottawa can all turn around bad situations but Toronto cant? Were talking about getting back to the attendance they were at 2-3 years ago not trying to revive the glory days of the 80's. They have no presence in Toronto.. yet polls have suggested otherwise....TV ratings have suggested otherwise (5-6x that of TFC) and attendance records for the last half decade has suggested otherwise. So what is it? please give me something either than trying to push your personal opinion off as the general public's.

The TV deal is a very small part of CFL revenue, remember only 2 years ago they were making less than 20% of what they are now. And what does being "stuck" with TSN have to do with cord cutting? If it was on sports net would that make a difference?? Cord cutters are going to hurt all live sporting events. But to say It's gonna hurt the CFL is a pretty bold statement considering the CFL is primarily a Gate driven league. If anything the CFL will handle it better than the big 4 who rely on TV revenue to pay player salaries.
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Last edited by Oilkountry; Dec 31, 2015 at 5:00 PM.
     
     
  #4284  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
I disagree. Cord-cutters are going to hurt TV viewing for the CFL since it's stuck on TSN. And after the initial novelty of BMO wears off, the Argos will still have poor attendance (ie. it's not the stadium) and little presence in Toronto. But we'll have to wait and see.
The technology is there with TSN GO, etc to stream the games, the CFL and TSN just need to figure out a revenue stream for those who do not subscribe through regular cable. Would "cord cutters" pay $5-10 bucks a month to have access to TSN on their phone / laptop / tablet?

Realistically, the Argos just need to come up with another 13-15K fans per game and I think they can with a properly marketed team playing in a WAY better venue for their needs
     
     
  #4285  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 5:25 PM
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Just saw this pic of BMO and at this angle the North Stands seem very small and I know TFC fans are complaining that they are losing the "intimacy" that 4 sides bring, but I think if there is a party deck there with 4-5 rows of seating in front of it for soccer games, they won't lose much and I think that the party deck crowd will bring in new fans that might not have gone to a game before. Same with Argos fans in that respect too

     
     
  #4286  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cjones2451 View Post
Realistically, the Argos just need to come up with another 13-15K fans per game and I think they can with a properly marketed team playing in a WAY better venue for their needs
And that's based off worse case scenario which was last season. Even if you rewind 1 more year that number gets knocked down to 7000 fans to completely sell out BMO. I don't think it surprised anyone that the Argos were drawing flies last season. Lame duck season/No marketing budget/ And let's not forget the worst home game situation in the history of home game situations. Games played at fort mac,Hamilton,ottawa and not seeing rogers centre for months. I'm not sure why we would even take 2015's attendance numbers seriously

All 5 games at rogers centre in 2015 (16.9k average)
-20,642
-14,748
-17,694
-14,236
-17,511

Fort mac-4,900
THF-3,401
THF-3,741
TD place-15,011

pretty clear how that average got dragged down to 12.6K

If this was 2013 we wouldn't even be having this conversation because 23,689.7 Would look pretty good at BMO
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Last edited by Oilkountry; Dec 31, 2015 at 6:58 PM.
     
     
  #4287  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 7:13 PM
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"Has the world gone topsy turvy?" - Seymour Skinner

I've actually been agreeing with much of what oilkountry has been posting lately

What I can't understand is some people's agenda of thinly veiled shots against the CFL. Why would you denigrate your own country's domestic league? Why not just STFU, does the Machine (NFL) need any extra help in keeping the CFL down. Why do you want to shit on David and cheer on Goliath? I'll never get it. I'll never understand the wannabe mentality.

Had a discussion with a guy at a Christmas party and he was doing the ol' CFL sucks routine and yet he does that but is totally clueless about the game. So how can you say something sucks when you've never seen it, aside from being a wannabe and being brainwashed by what a few of your peers say. Even worse, he didn't even know anything about the NFL. Asked about the great story in KC where LDT is a popular player and a doctor for poop's sakes and he never heard of him.

Last edited by elly63; Dec 31, 2015 at 7:49 PM.
     
     
  #4288  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
"Has the world gone topsy turvy?" Seymour Skinner

I've actually been agreeing with much of what oilkountry has been posting lately

What I can't understand is Berklon's agenda of thinly veiled shots against the CFL. Why would you denigrate your own country's domestic league? Why not just STFU, does the Machine (NFL) need any extra help in keeping the CFL down. Why do you want to shit on David and cheer on Goliath? I'll never get it.
Some people just can't imagine anything other than the status quo. I'm sure some people like Berklon in Ottawa and Montreal probably figured that the CFL was never coming back and would never be successful if it did. These kinds of people think that the Argos will never experience a resurgence and will forever be stuck with their numbers from the off-field catastrophe of a season that was 2015.
     
     
  #4289  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 7:47 PM
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Before I saw your post I edited Berklon's name out of my post because I didn't want to tar him with the same brush as some others but since you quoted my original post, hell let's call a spade a spade.

One of my favourite things is to find out things that happen behind the scenes of what a sterotyped image is really all about. There are all sorts of things about the CFL that aren't hyped from the league that would put it into a much better light. Actually Cohon and Bob Young did go on the attack once and made some public statements exhorting the league in comparison to other leagues.

The one that gets me is the "minor league" tag when the league once had the 6th highest per game attendance of any league in the world (still top ten) What does that say about the leagues below it?

Another one of my "things are not as they seem" bits of trivia. I grew up hating the Osmonds (jealous because the girls liked them) but later found out how good of performers and writers they were. They actually did some acid rock type stuff. Jay Osmond was one of the best drummers, the stuff you just don't know!

Man I am off topic, this is supposed to be the stadiums thread. Sorry.
     
     
  #4290  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2015, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Some people just can't imagine anything other than the status quo.
Unfortunately, this is as true in planning as it is in sports.
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  #4291  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 2:31 AM
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The CFL has it's flaws. Its old guard of older fans still thinks it's the 70s when the CFL and NFL were on par with each other. For young fans like me all I remember is the CFL at rock bottom in the 90s. Or now, though in better straits, the league has a void in talent as nobody wants to talk about how the practice rosters in the USA has scrubbed clean rosters of viable players who are imports.

The argument of two different games loses reason with younger fans. There is no JJ Watt equivalent in the CFL, no subset of players so dominate they transcend the sport. You need stars and those types of players to catch the attention of young folks. I have beaten that to death though so I will leave it alone.

This post was more to refer to warning folks who are not local to Toronto in commenting about the market place here. Toronto is a odd and a broken market for football. There isn't some sleeping fan base of Argos fans here which is why many are saying the same thing I am in that after the honeymoon period of a new BMO, things will return back to how they have been.

The market needs a full reboot which means going after going children and growing them into fans. There are few fans under the age of 40, and next to none downtown where over 100k people live. The Blue Jays fueled their revival of tapping into the yuppies who live downtown, I see no links that the Argos can do the same.

Many young yuppies who are diehard football fans bet on games and this keep up with NFL and NCAA, they go down to Buffalo for games and many go to Ann Arbour to watch games in the Big House. To them trying to peddle the meager Argos as a equivalent to the experience of Michigan football or a Bills game is a non-starter, they won't take you seriously.

This broken market is the same reason the Bills flopped here. My friends from Sask were giddy for NFL in Toronto and many made the trip, Toronto folks knew it was a bait and switch in a weaker version of the NFL experience at triple the price! Toronto can't recreate tailgating and it does not have the relaxed atmosphere of central Canada that make CFL game days a important cultural event for the city. All it has is older, mostly white, male fans, who live in Vaughn.

How will the CFL reboot this to include the minorities in the city who equal 65% of the population?

How about the transients from elsewhere who already have CFL teams?

How about the yuppies who have money but view the CFL as not credible?

When you bring up those realities all the league and the uniformed folks do is trot out the flawed TV numbers that include a catchment area that stretches to London Ontario, essentially useless.

In the end there is no Argos market here in Toronto and that can be blessing and a curse depending on how Bell approaches it.
     
     
  #4292  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 7:46 AM
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Most of the CFL's struggles begin and end with TSN. And the inability to cater to younger demographic.

If you watch an NFL broadcast compared to any CFL broadcast the difference in the 2 is laughable. They rent those over head cameras for they grey cup...Why not invest in your bread and butter? Those should be in most if not all cfl stadiums regardless of cost. You're protecting your 40 Million dollar investment. The panel is my other gripe. Keep Milt. Kick the rest to the curb starting with Matt Dunigan who is the worst sportscaster in the history of ever. But to round it out TSN portrays the CFL as a heritage league and it annoys the hell outa me. Everything is so red and bland. I'm not saying the CFL should Americanize itself or try and compete with the Big show down south. But maybe take some pointers on how to appeal to a younger crowd. When I think of the NFL Image I think of ferraris and chrome,vodka and flash. When I think of the CFL I think of old leather,burgandy and Scotch on the rocks. Hell the new logo looks like it was designed as an alternative for the original logo. The new commish screwed this up worse than his grey cup presentation.

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  #4293  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
The CFL has it's flaws. Its old guard of older fans still thinks it's the 70s when the CFL and NFL were on par with each other. For young fans like me all I remember is the CFL at rock bottom in the 90s. Or now, though in better straits, the league has a void in talent as nobody wants to talk about how the practice rosters in the USA has scrubbed clean rosters of viable players who are imports.

The argument of two different games loses reason with younger fans. There is no JJ Watt equivalent in the CFL, no subset of players so dominate they transcend the sport. You need stars and those types of players to catch the attention of young folks. I have beaten that to death though so I will leave it alone.

This post was more to refer to warning folks who are not local to Toronto in commenting about the market place here. Toronto is a odd and a broken market for football. There isn't some sleeping fan base of Argos fans here which is why many are saying the same thing I am in that after the honeymoon period of a new BMO, things will return back to how they have been.

The market needs a full reboot which means going after going children and growing them into fans. There are few fans under the age of 40, and next to none downtown where over 100k people live. The Blue Jays fueled their revival of tapping into the yuppies who live downtown, I see no links that the Argos can do the same.

Many young yuppies who are diehard football fans bet on games and this keep up with NFL and NCAA, they go down to Buffalo for games and many go to Ann Arbour to watch games in the Big House. To them trying to peddle the meager Argos as a equivalent to the experience of Michigan football or a Bills game is a non-starter, they won't take you seriously.

This broken market is the same reason the Bills flopped here. My friends from Sask were giddy for NFL in Toronto and many made the trip, Toronto folks knew it was a bait and switch in a weaker version of the NFL experience at triple the price! Toronto can't recreate tailgating and it does not have the relaxed atmosphere of central Canada that make CFL game days a important cultural event for the city. All it has is older, mostly white, male fans, who live in Vaughn.

How will the CFL reboot this to include the minorities in the city who equal 65% of the population?

How about the transients from elsewhere who already have CFL teams?

How about the yuppies who have money but view the CFL as not credible?

When you bring up those realities all the league and the uniformed folks do is trot out the flawed TV numbers that include a catchment area that stretches to London Ontario, essentially useless.

In the end there is no Argos market here in Toronto and that can be blessing and a curse depending on how Bell approaches it.
Osmo, nothing personal but I think you are obsessed with the overall macro entertainment market when you need to focus on the micro market. You take the experience of a few people and apply it to an entire market. I mean come on, yuppies from Toronto going down to Ann Arbor for Michigan games. What is that, 10 of your friends and you make it out as a growing trend. Here it is in a nutshell. The Argos need 25,000 people to show up for a game in order to be successful. If that is just 25,000 old white guys from Vaughan, then so be it, they are successful. I agree that the CFL needs to do more to open up their product to a wider market, but once you start filling BMO with old white guys who love the CFL, there is no more room for your yuppies. So basically you are just talking about building a larger TV market and social media market. If the Argos do that right (and there is no reason to believe that Bell can't hire some talented yuppies to build their brand over Facebook or any of the 1000 other yuppie social media sites) then they will have a product that will add new fans to fill the seats as the old white guys start to die off. The Argos will be successful, because it won't take that much to fill 25,000 seats in a metro of 6 million. Basically that means that 99.55% of the population (and all the yuppies) will be doing something else and 0.45% of the population will be going to the Argos game. I like their odds. They have done it before. Now whether the Argos become Yuppie cool, well that will depend on Bell's marketing ability.
     
     
  #4294  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 8:14 PM
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In the end there is no Argos market here in Toronto and that can be blessing and a curse depending on how Bell approaches it.
So a city that loves to sell itself as the most multicultural city in the World isn't diverse enough to support a CFL team? Are we really to believe that the largest city in a country of cultures would not be able to support a well-run team that provides decent entertainment?
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  #4295  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 8:51 PM
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Very interesting article from the Toronto Star (not some Calgary-based group with its own agenda) describing the sports popularity dynamic in Ontario. Aside from the typical arrogant boosterism from the Argos rep Moore, everything else seems quite balanced. Blue Jays and the Leafs at the top in our city and province in terms of popularity with Raptors third. TFC and Argos are neck and neck province-wide at 2 percent each with TFC naturally getting the edge in Toronto where Argos have virtually zero support in the young demographic:

-------------------------------
Toronto Star Sports

Poll shows sports fans warmed up to Blue Jays but coldly indifferent to Argos
http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sports/20...ays-but-coldly-indifferent-to-argos.html

Earlier this year, the Star commissioned Forum Research to survey Ontarians about various aspects of their lives, including their favourite sports teams.

Larry MacDougal / Special to the Star

Tyler Richard is a die-hard Argos fan who lives in Calgary. A year-end poll shows Ontario sports fans remain largely indifferent to the Argos. But Richard remains hopeful that will change when the team moves into BMO Field next season.
Published on Dec 31 2015

Morgan Campbell
Staff Reporter

According to pollsters, folks like Tyler Richard are about as common as unicorns.

When Forum Research polled 1,001 Ontarians about their favourite sports teams, only two per cent said they cheered primarily for the Toronto Argonauts compared with 28 per cent for the Blue Jays. And among the 18-34 demographic marketers covet, 23 per cent are Jays supporters while not a single respondent identified themselves first and foremost as an Argos fan. Not one.

The pollsters should have called Richard, who moved to Calgary last year and brought his lifelong love of the Argos with him.

He attended his first Argos game in 1990 and hasn’t stopped supporting the club. His new friends in Calgary tease him about his clothes — double blue every day —and tattoo (“Argos” above his shoulder blade). At 33, he fits within the age group the Argos are fighting to attract and also blends in well in his adopted city, where CFL fans of all ages are the norm.
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But Richard knows he’s an outlier amongst his peers in Toronto, and the poll results have him a little worried for his hometown team, especially with the 2016 Grey Cup being held in Toronto, a city that appears quite indifferent to the CFL.

The CFL feels like a small-town league in a big city,” says Richard, a sales rep for athletic shoe manufacturer Saucony. “(My friends) think I’m a little kooky, but I’m an against-the-grain kind of guy.”

Earlier this year, the Star commissioned Forum Research to survey Ontarians about various aspects of their lives, including their favourite sports teams.

Some poll results were predictable. Two per cent of respondents identified Toronto FC as their primary rooting interest, tying them with the Argos and placing both teams well behind the city’s big three franchises.

But there were some surprises — six per cent of fans root for the Raptors, 12 per cent back the Leafs and 28 per cent said the Blue Jays were their main sports team. Blue Jays support was strongest in Toronto, where 39 per cent of respondents support them, and weakest in eastern Ontario where Ottawa Senators fans (26 per cent) predominate.

The main factor driving the Blue Jays’ surge in popularity? On-field success.

The president of the polling company says the Jays’ run to the American League Championship Series placed the club front-of-mind for sports fans across the province, while the Leafs retain fans in spite of lacklustre results.

“It’s not true (anymore) that this is a hardcore hockey town,” says Forum Research president Lorne Bozinoff. “I assumed this was a Leafs town (but) this town is starved for a winner.”

Still, the poll contains encouraging results for CFL stakeholders.

Four per cent of respondents listed the Hamilton Tiger-Cats as their favourite team. Among residents of the 905, that figure jumps to nine per cent, placing them just ahead of the Raptors, who registered eight per cent.

And in eastern Ontario, the Ottawa RedBlacks (15 per cent) outranked every team besides the Sens.

But conquering the Toronto market remains difficult.

“It’s a challenge, but it’s a challenge for every other league out there,” says CFL communications director Paulo Senra.

Argos executive Sara Moore says unique circumstances likely swayed this year’s poll results. Just as a strong season boosted the Blue Jays’ numbers, the Argos suffered from events they couldn’t control.

The club played its first five games on the road last season while the Rogers Centre prepared to host the Pan Am Games opening ceremony. And October scheduling conflicts with Jays playoff games forced the Argos to play “home” games in Hamilton and Ottawa.

With so many events aligning to keep the Argos out of town for long stretches, Moore isn’t surprised the club polled so weakly. She says she would be more worried if the club had played a normal schedule and still failed to capture sports fans’ attention.

“We made it really hard to be an Argos fan last year,” says Moore, the Argos senior vice-president of business operations. “I know what I’m starting with and where I can go. That was rock-bottom and we’re never going to have all those things go against us again.”

Moore, Richard and the league all hope the Argos’ move to a remodeled BMO Field will re-energize the club’s current fans and help it welcome new ones.

The Argos averaged 12,430 spectators at the Rogers Centre last season, well below the league average of 24,737. And in a stadium with more than 28,000 seats, those gatherings seemed tiny. Meanwhile, a lack of parking precluded the pre-game tailgate parties central to the game day experience elsewhere.

Moving to the city-owned, MLSE-managed BMO Field makes the Argos and Toronto FC roommates and rivals.

A year from now, Moore says, the Argos should post stronger poll numbers than TFC, which earned two per cent of votes even after league MVP Sebastian Giovinco powered the club to the post-season. She says a season with a balanced schedule, on-field success and BMO Field’s fan-friendly atmosphere could make the Argos as popular as the Raptors if a similar poll is conducted next autumn.

As for Richard, he will be at BMO Field. He gave up his season tickets when he moved to Calgary but has plans to attend the Argos inaugural game at BMO.

“What the Argos have now is that feeling of Canadiana, that feeling of being outdoors,” Richard says. “It’s become a lifelong passion, but it got me before I was 10 years old.”
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  #4296  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 9:00 PM
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As a 26 yr old i love the new cfl logo. Just putting that out there.
     
     
  #4297  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 9:58 PM
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As a 26 yr old i love the new cfl logo. Just putting that out there.
That makes one of us. As a 28 year old I hate it.

No wrong or right in perspective
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  #4298  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 10:03 PM
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2 things that stick out in my mind from that article

“We made it really hard to be an Argos fan last year,” says Moore, the Argos senior vice-president of business operations. “I know what I’m starting with and where I can go. That was rock-bottom and we’re never going to have all those things go against us again.”

"A year from now, Moore says, the Argos should post stronger poll numbers than TFC, which earned two per cent of votes even after league MVP Sebastian Giovinco powered the club to the post-season. She says a season with a balanced schedule, on-field success and BMO Field’s fan-friendly atmosphere could make the Argos as popular as the Raptors if a similar poll is conducted next autumn"
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  #4299  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2016, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
That makes one of us. As a 28 year old I hate it.

No wrong or right in perspective

I'd like it more if the Maple Leaf didn't look like such an afterthought/hidden feature.
     
     
  #4300  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2016, 12:19 AM
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The Argos are going to be doing great now, they already have sold 9000 season tickets 3 weeks ago and their goal is 20,000 by the start of the 2016 season and should be on pace to meet that goal and sell out BMO every game.

My biggest concern is the slow but steady decline in support for the BC Lions with Braley still owning that team it keeps them in the dark ages.
     
     
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