ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[testarossa50]

On revisiting I sorta like the Civic Center redevelopment. Reminds me a bit of the former Yugoslavia.

Also, city projects generally need permits since the municipal permit process is used to administer state- and federal-level regulations (stormwater, ADA, etc), which cities themselves must follow. I believe state-level entities (such as the GA Ports Authority) are exempt from municipal permits, although they must follow the regulations all the same.

I'm curious about the value of the MLK project. It seems like a very large scope of work based on the description. Maybe it is being done over the course of many years?

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

I'm curious about the value of the MLK project. It seems like a very large scope of work based on the description. Maybe it is being done over the course of many years?

Original timeline was 2017-2019, in phases, with a cost of $60 million. But they didn't get a $30 million TIGER grant. $30mil is already identified/secured, so they might only do part of it, might scale back, or might identify more funding sources. It's really a huge project, and in some parts will mimic the scale of the Beltline.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

I can see a new crane in o4w from my balcony not sure for what development. It looks like it might be at the other end of O4W park from Ponce City Market.

Also on Atlantic House fencing they are listing now a couple of the retail tenants: Einstein's, Caribou, and (irc) McCray's Tavern. I'm not sure how 3 different coffee shops are going to stay afloat in that one corner.

[kamden99]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

I can see a new crane in o4w from my balcony not sure for what development. It looks like it might be at the other end of O4W park from Ponce City Market.

Also on Atlantic House fencing they are listing now a couple of the retail tenants: Einstein's, Caribou, and (irc) McCray's Tavern. I'm not sure how 3 different coffee shops are going to stay afloat in that one corner.

Einstein Bros and Caribou are operating some co-branded stores around the U.S. right now - but I think this would be the first one in Georgia. It will do well - and I'm sure Starbucks will continue to kill it in that location as well.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Permit filed with the city today for the civic center redevelopment (Weingarten Realty):

It looks like it was filed 12/15/2015

Details: 765 residential units; 700,000 SF Office; 300 Hotel Rooms; 246,000 SF Retail.
Estimated Project Completion Dates:
This project/phase: 2020
Overall project: 2020

http://www.dca.state.ga.us/DRI/InitialForm.aspx?driid=2542

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

I can see a new crane in o4w from my balcony not sure for what development. It looks like it might be at the other end of O4W park from Ponce City Market.

Also on Atlantic House fencing they are listing now a couple of the retail tenants: Einstein's, Caribou, and (irc) McCray's Tavern. I'm not sure how 3 different coffee shops are going to stay afloat in that one corner.

It's probably the Anthem on Ashley project along the O4W. Broke ground a while ago.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by kamden99

Einstein Bros and Caribou are operating some co-branded stores around the U.S. right now - but I think this would be the first one in Georgia. It will do well - and I'm sure Starbucks will continue to kill it in that location as well.

used to be one over by toco hills, but caribou pulled out and left einstein a couple of years ago. interesting that caribou is opening in atlantic house though, they just closed the long standing one on roswell south of sandy springs that i worked at in college!

[micropundit]

Paces Properties officially filed plans to build Larkin On Memorial, a 63,000-square-foot, $9.6 million redevelopment mixed-use project, at 519 Memorial Drive SE.The Atlanta-based real estate developer behind Krog Street Market and the forthcoming Atlanta Dairies, last week submitted six separate permit applications with City of Atlanta to redevelop buildings and land formerly home to the Habitat for Humanity facility across from Oakland Cemetery, for Larkin On Memorial.Available spaces range in size from 1,245 to 16,000 square feet, and Paces is currently scouting a "dry cleaner, nail salon, daycare, medical, hardware, various retailers and office users," for the project.

https://whatnowatlanta.com/krog-street-market-ksm-developer-files-plans-for-larkin-on-memorial/

[RocketSurgeon]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

Also on Atlantic House fencing they are listing now a couple of the retail tenants: Einstein's, Caribou, and (irc) McCray's Tavern. I'm not sure how 3 different coffee shops are going to stay afloat in that one corner.

Originally Posted by kamden99

Einstein Bros and Caribou are operating some co-branded stores around the U.S. right now - but I think this would be the first one in Georgia. It will do well - and I'm sure Starbucks will continue to kill it in that location as well.

No chances are being taken by Einstein Bros. It has been there for many years. Their old building was torn down for the tower.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

No chances are being taken by Einstein Bros. It has been there for many years. Their old building was torn down for the tower.

i wish that developers would take the same efforts with local businesses that are located in the developments they demolish. like carolyn's that was on that site, for example. there are a hundred einstein's around the metro area, but there was only one carolyn's. because the chains have more money and more leverage, they can make sure they get a seat at the table in the new developments. but the independent restaurant owners get kicked out, and when the new building goes up, the owners keep the new storefronts' rents artificially high, and the storefronts stay empty. that is literally bulldozing the culture out of midtown. it is done to induce demographic change and keep small and minority businesses owners from re-entering the market after construction is completed. the city needs to take action and prevent building owners from distorting the market.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i wish that developers would take the same efforts with local businesses that are located in the developments they demolish. like carolyn's that was on that site, for example. there are a hundred einstein's around the metro area, but there was only one carolyn's. because the chains have more money and more leverage, they can make sure they get a seat at the table in the new developments. but the independent restaurant owners get kicked out, and when the new building goes up, the owners keep the new storefronts' rents artificially high, and the storefronts stay empty. that is literally bulldozing the culture out of midtown. it is done to induce demographic change and keep small and minority businesses owners from re-entering the market after construction is completed. the city needs to take action and prevent building owners from distorting the market.

Because all of the developers out there in collusion to induce demographic change? Or rather the market is already doing that for the last 20+ years?

Carolyn's had a second location so they're not completely gone - perhaps they'll find a better location in Midtown to come back to once the "honeymoon" period has passed for some of these retail developments. But it's not necessarily the developers that are the ones scheming to change the demographics - they're just hopping on board the demographic changes already happening through gentrification that's been going on the past 20+ years in Midtown.

There are plusses and minuses to growth, but you're only looking at the short-term affects rather than the long-term neighborhood growth. Maintaining some equity is always going to be a concern but there have been some smaller, underutilized commercial properties that have allowed for the more local business owners to take advantage of the development waves as well. Savi Provisions would be one particularly that stands out.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i wish that developers would take the same efforts with local businesses that are located in the developments they demolish. like carolyn's that was on that site, for example. there are a hundred einstein's around the metro area, but there was only one carolyn's. because the chains have more money and more leverage, they can make sure they get a seat at the table in the new developments. but the independent restaurant owners get kicked out, and when the new building goes up, the owners keep the new storefronts' rents artificially high, and the storefronts stay empty. that is literally bulldozing the culture out of midtown. it is done to induce demographic change and keep small and minority businesses owners from re-entering the market after construction is completed. the city needs to take action and prevent building owners from distorting the market.

You'd need to talk to someone that is in commercial leasing and/or a developer to get the the full scoop, but it is my understanding from talking with a few people that the developers/commercial leasing team would love to bring in local businesses with an established customer base, but there are issues that arise with these large projects that prevent that. Because the developers are getting their debt financing from large financial institutions, they have certain requirements for the retail tenant space and those can often be difficult hurdles for smaller, local businesses to overcome (at times, due to their own fault) and much easier for larger, more established local/regional/national chains to meet.

That is assuming the once local tenant even desires the space at the current $/SF.

I do agree that it is unfortunate that often times long established businesses get pushed out, but there isn't some grand conspiracy to push them out and/or keep rents artificially high to prevent them from leasing once the new building is up.

[RocketSurgeon]

It may be unfeasible, but buying is the only way to guarantee costs will remain the same (taxes aside). Businesses are at the mercy of the market when they borrow someone else's property. Financing issues aside, I'm sure you wouldn't rent a house to someone for half of the market rate just to be nice to them. Rents rise, and many can't or won't pay the higher rate.

Despite that, Viewpoint is the only major building I can think of that doesn't have at least one local tenant. Many are surviving and even thriving.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

Despite that, Viewpoint is the only major building I can think of that doesn't have at least one local tenant. Many are surviving and even thriving.

Right. There certainly are a lot of chains in Midtown, but there are a ton of local businesses already, and more are moving in to the new buildings. Local "chains" (like Dancing Goat, Big Peach Running Co, Sweet Hut, Octane, Savi, Cafe Agora, Cafe Intermezzo, Highland Bakery, Bantam & Biddy) are moving in at a record pace. And just look at the breadth of local/independent businesses that have opened in just the past few years - Eco Denizen, Rreal taco, Hi-Five Diner, En Paris, Escorpion, Tabla, Bezoria, Cypress Street P&P, the Lawrence, Henry's, Grain, Takorea, the Spence, etc...

Losing something like Caroline's is unfortunate, but we've added way more local businesses than we've lost. Most of the new highrises are being built on surface parking lots anyway.

I think the real issue is that 95% of new businesses are restaurants. I can walk to 10 different places where I can buy a taco, but I have to walk 2 miles and cross an interstate to buy some socks.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

there isn't some grand conspiracy to push them out and/or keep rents artificially high to prevent them from leasing once the new building is up.

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Because all of the developers out there in collusion to induce demographic change?

it's not collusion when it's a common practice. their decisionmaking process is solely economic; they (let's say novare concerning the retail portions of the skyhouse developments, for example) just opened luxury apartments that they are selling at very high rents, but they haven't attracted "high-end" businesses to a lot of the empty storefronts; if they lowered the rent to what the market was demanding for those storefronts, they would be fully occupied by local businesses and bodegas. however, renting storefronts to lower-end businesses would cause the rent to fall in their apartments. and since apartment rents are the primary profit factor in these developments, they are willing to hold out a few years until they can reel in high-end businesses.

this has happened in reverse in 'avalon', the development in alpharetta. they have attracted a high number of luxury businesses, but they haven't attracted renters to occupy the apartments and office spaces upstairs. instead of charging the market rate, they keep the rents high so that the business downstairs isn't impacted by 'the wrong crowd' (aka poor or minority residents) scaring away the high end customers. the impact here is that none of the retail workers who work at avalon can afford to live there, while the apartments upstairs stay vacant.

even though the reasons are economic, they represent a sort of unethical collusion between the retail and residential portions ensuring that certain classes of people can't have access to their development at all.

i would propose that the city council look into mandating that the retail and the residential portions of the buildings are owned by separate and unaffiliated entities. that way, building owners wouldn't be able to distort the markets in one direction or the other.

[ATL_J]

@ bryantm3

People have given you tons of examples of local businesses remaining or being attracted to Midtown since the new development and flourishing. Most of these developments have been on empty, vacant lots that didn't displace any prior businesses.

Rather than speaking in vague generalities, why not give examples?

Regarding Novare, SkyHouse Midtown has a small, regional fast casual sandwhich place out of Auburn and a print shop that, from what I can tell, caters heavily to the students in the area. SkyHouse South has what, a fitness studio? The parking deck has an Ace Hardware? I'm just not sure there is an argument to be had that they're holding these storefronts for "high-end businesses" and keeping them empty on purpose.

Again, this isn't to imply that some local businesses haven't been pushed out, but there is something to be said for the area improving and becoming highly desirable which naturally pushes up rents, as there are more households within walking distance to these storefronts. I don't fault the owners of the storefronts for trying to get market rent for their property and if the owners of a local business don't think they can pay market rent and still make a profit, then that isn't collusion, but their business decision.

[RobMidtowner]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

it's not collusion when it's a common practice. their decisionmaking process is solely economic; they (let's say novare concerning the retail portions of the skyhouse developments, for example) just opened luxury apartments that they are selling at very high rents, but they haven't attracted "high-end" businesses to a lot of the empty storefronts; if they lowered the rent to what the market was demanding for those storefronts, they would be fully occupied by local businesses and bodegas. however, renting storefronts to lower-end businesses would cause the rent to fall in their apartments. and since apartment rents are the primary profit factor in these developments, they are willing to hold out a few years until they can reel in high-end businesses.

this has happened in reverse in 'avalon', the development in alpharetta. they have attracted a high number of luxury businesses, but they haven't attracted renters to occupy the apartments and office spaces upstairs. instead of charging the market rate, they keep the rents high so that the business downstairs isn't impacted by 'the wrong crowd' (aka poor or minority residents) scaring away the high end customers. the impact here is that none of the retail workers who work at avalon can afford to live there, while the apartments upstairs stay vacant.

even though the reasons are economic, they represent a sort of unethical collusion between the retail and residential portions ensuring that certain classes of people can't have access to their development at all.

i would propose that the city council look into mandating that the retail and the residential portions of the buildings are owned by separate and unaffiliated entities. that way, building owners wouldn't be able to distort the markets in one direction or the other.

How do you know if the owners of Carolyn's just didn't want to reopen there? That is a possibility too.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

@ bryantm3
SkyHouse South has what, a fitness studio? The parking deck has an Ace Hardware? I'm just not sure there is an argument to be had that they're holding these storefronts for "high-end businesses" and keeping them empty on purpose.

Skyhouse south has multiple local businesses: Kale me Krazy and Rreal Taco. The ACE is a locally owned franchise. The gym (Blast studio) is local, with just three locations (Midtown, Buckhead, Athens) - they're now expanding to DC, so if anything Skyhouse actually served as an incubator for local businesses. There's only one space left - a 940sqft space in the parking deck. Pretty much a perfect example of not only filling up the retail spaces, but filling them with local businesses.

[L.ARCH]

Greystar Real Estate Partners is moving forward with plans for a roughly $150 million mixed-use project in bustling Midtown.

The developer is proposing a two-building project called Ascent Midtown with 323 residential units, a 165-key hotel, 3,000-square-foot restaurant and 3,000-5,000 square feet of retail and bike facility space.


http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/real_...es-forward-with-150-million-midtown.html

This will be HUGE for this part of midtown!

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by L.ARCH

Greystar Real Estate Partners is moving forward with plans for a roughly $150 million mixed-use project in bustling Midtown.

The developer is proposing a two-building project called Ascent Midtown with 323 residential units, a 165-key hotel, 3,000-square-foot restaurant and 3,000-5,000 square feet of retail and bike facility space.


http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/real_...es-forward-with-150-million-midtown.html

This will be HUGE for this part of midtown!

That article was posted back in August....no permits have been filed yet for it.