PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[RonnieStevens]

As a resident of Fairmount and someone who lives nearly across the street, I 100% agree that another store replacing Wholefoods is not what anyone expected or is excited about for this location. It seems the conversation shifted from is this the best use of space and do we know if this is going to be the set up for years to what sort of crowd does a target attract... When the store shuts its doors for the night, this corner is dead. So moving north from CC you have the parkway and logan circle that separate fairmount from the city. With the Mormon development, hotel at the old family court and the redesign of the 676 overpass, that gap will finally be somewhat bridged. And now comes Callowhill with its lots... its like we are pushing from the South to integrate the neighborhood into CC density and reversing that progress 2 blocks up.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by jjv007

If this thread wraps up or reaches 501 pages in the next one or two days, it will have reached the same number of posts as Development Thread VIII (the previous one) in exactly half the time.
Pretty cool, eh?

That's alot of stuff about Wendy's!

Originally Posted by RonnieStevens

As a resident of Fairmount and someone who lives nearly across the street, I 100% agree that another store replacing Wholefoods is not what anyone expected or is excited about for this location. It seems the conversation shifted from is this the best use of space and do we know if this is going to be the set up for years to what sort of crowd does a target attract... When the store shuts its doors for the night, this corner is dead. So moving north from CC you have the parkway and logan circle that separate fairmount from the city. With the Mormon development, hotel at the old family court and the redesign of the 676 overpass, that gap will finally be somewhat bridged. And now comes Callowhill with its lots... its like we are pushing from the South to integrate the neighborhood into CC density and reversing that progress 2 blocks up.

Totally with you. I have zero problem with the fact that it's Target. Center City needs these kind of amenities. I wouldn't even care if it were a Walmart - integrated into a well-designed mixed use complex. It's all about the configuration and the time frame. Think about it: we will all be old and ugly by the time anything architecturally and urbanistically interesting gets developed at this site - a key site half a block from our never-quite-getting-there answer to the Champs Elysees, the keystone between the Barnes and the Rodin Museums, a site with nearly unmatched potential to integrate burgeoning growth in Center City, Franklin Town, and Fairmount . . . . . then this nebbish-y New Yorker (if it's a guy named Sheldon, and I think it is, I've met him before) who doesn't give a shit about Philly pulls this out. It's a pretty major wasted opportunity.

Tant pis; c'est la vie, to carry on the French/Champs Elysees motif running through the conversation.


source

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

really fits in with one of the most expensive art collections in North America.

Very true. The Art Institute of Chicago nearly fled for Evanston when this CityTarget moved in two blocks away:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8820612,...twg!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

That spot deserves something better that suites the residents of the neighborhood better. Not a parking lot store thay needs external customers to survive.

The parking lot and existing layout should be where your anger is directed. It's unfortunate, but hardly a step back for the neighborhood.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Teakwood

Very true. The Art Institute of Chicago nearly fled for Evanston when this CityTarget moved in two blocks away:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8820612,...twg!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656



The parking lot and existing layout should be where your anger is directed. It's unfortunate, but hardly a step back for the neighborhood.

And there's a TJMaxx and Burlington Coat Factory across the street. There goes the neighborhood.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by Teakwood

Very true. The Art Institute of Chicago nearly fled for Evanston when this CityTarget moved in two blocks away:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8820664,...jgg!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Let's add this one to my list of small-format, urban Targets in San Francisco, Boston, Manhattan (TriBeCa), and Brooklyn.

[TempleGuy1000]

^so you guys think Fairmount/art museum area is the Philadelphia equivalent to that?

[TempleGuy1000]

^so you guys think Fairmount/art museum area is the Philadelphia equivalent to that? If anyone actually read my comments they would see I don't oppose the urban targets. I oppose a full fledged target box store which Cafeguy said would be perfect for the area

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

^so you guys think Fairmount/art museum area is the Philadelphia equivalent to that? If anyone actually read my comments they would see I don't oppose the urban targets. I oppose a full fledged target box store which Cafeguy said would be perfect for the area

This Target is somewhere in-between. It's a city Target in a small box. Given that we're not going to get a higher density development, my concern is not with the tenant, but with keeping that parking lot (rated among Philly's worst in some poll - Philly Magazine, I believe). As folks have said, people like me are not driving the van with my wife and five kids to shop at that Target. It doesn't really need a lot any more than the two Chestnut ones will. A pickup lane for larger purchases maybe, but not that unpleasant lot. I'd love to see something built on or over that, but I'm sure that Target's lease won't allow that sort of inconvenience.

[TempleGuy1000]

Fair enough. The real irony of all of this is I am on my phone at work and every time I reload the page a full screen Target ad for Star Wars toys keeps popping up lol..

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Fair enough. The real irony of all of this is I am on my phone at work and every time I reload the page a full screen Target ad for Star Wars toys keeps popping up lol..

[Why the hell do you think we're defending Target??? They're WATCHING. ]

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

. . . . . then this nebbish-y New Yorker (if it's a guy named Sheldon, and I think it is, I've met him before) who doesn't give a shit about Philly pulls this out. It's a pretty major wasted opportunity.

Yeah, I noticed commentary that this was a New Yorker. Even less reason to expect that there'd be focus on anything but financials for this property.

[summersm343]

Apartment market looks strong

In Philadelphia, construction, renovation, and acquisition of multifamily rental units continues.

Eli Rosen, senior vice president of Gebroe-Hammer Associates, recently was involved in arranging more than $60 million in sales encompassing more than 350 units throughout the city's central and western neighborhoods.

These included Garden Court Plaza, a 146-unit, 13-story 1920s-era building at 47th and Pine Streets, and Roosevelt Apartments at 2216-2222 Walnut St.

In 2015 thus far, Rosen and managing director Joseph Brecher brokered sales totaling $128 million and 1,250 units.

"Investor appetite has been insatiable, and the tenant base of young professionals continues to absorb new product metro-wide at a historic pace," Rosen said.

Investor activity "ignites in a dependable Philadelphia market" is how real estate investment services firm Marcus & Millichap put it.

What makes this market so dependable?

"Healthy economic indicators are driving growth in the Philadelphia economy," said Marcus & Millichap's fourth-quarter outlook.

The local unemployment rate has reached its lowest level since the recession, the firm's report said, pushed down by corporate expansion. The Philadelphia workforce will grow 1.2 percent in 2015, or by 35,000 new positions, it added.

Last year, this region added 45,400 jobs to the market, led by gains in the education and health-services sector, Marcus & Millichap noted, and the growth encouraged developers to accelerate the pace of construction, with builders concentrating on the high-rent Center City market.

On the drawing board at the Camden waterfront is developer Liberty Property Trust's multiuse project, which will include office, retail, and hospitality space as well as more than 200 residential units. Construction is scheduled to begin in the fall of 2016, with completion tentatively scheduled for 2019.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/re...et_looks_strong.html#JQtTX4WZ6v4WeeVb.99

[Frontst17]

Clearly a higher density development would be best here but I think a Target will work out better than a whole foods even. Plus that'll be a few blocks away. And yes not only do think they'll shop there more than once a month they'll be there more than once a week. Hell even per day. Especially since their all made with Starbucks built in now. I think all of us would prefer a tower here with retail and underground parking.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Clearly a higher density development would be best here but I think a Target will work out better than a whole foods even. Plus that'll be a few blocks away. And yes not only do think they'll shop there more than once a month they'll be there more than once a week. Hell even per day. Especially since their all made with Starbucks built in now. I think all of us would prefer a tower here with retail and underground parking.

Why the hell would we want another Starbucks across the street from a Starbucks. I love the fact that I don't drink Starbucks due to abundance of locally owned shops around.

As a target employee, you can help clear this up for me.. What does an average everyday Target shopper buy? I go to Target because I have a target branded water purifier and need the filters. I go there once every few months for that. I usually go to the Columbus blvd one to get candy on the low before the movies at the Riverview.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I like how I am crucified for saying that a big discount box store doesn't fit into the neighborhood lol. Comparing this area to city Ave is near laughable. It's alright, it's obvious most of you are kids who have no idea what happens in this city when a place puts a big "EBT Accepted" sign out front. really fits in with one of the most expensive art collections in North America. Target is not a nice store especially the ones in Philly. It's a public forum and I am entitled to my opinion. You are kidding yourselves if you think an average resident of Fairmount would go into Target more than once a month. That spot deserves something better that suites the residents of the neighborhood better. Not a parking lot store thay needs external customers to survive. Btw I actually live in walking distance. Does anyone else?

Kids? I think you'd be blown away at how old most of the posters are here. I live in Fitler Square and I have family who lives in Rittenhouse Square. We are both counting the days till the City Target at 19th and Chestnut opens. Your generalizations about "average residents" is significantly off-base.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Yeah, I noticed commentary that this was a New Yorker. Even less reason to expect that there'd be focus on anything but financials for this property.

I suspect the guy may be a bit sour on Philly anyway: apparently the Tivoli project was aggravating and didn't make as much as it was thought it should ("it costs as much to build in Philly as in NY with a fraction of the profit potential" blah blah blah). Not that the national economy collapsing at the same time could have had anything to do with reduced profits. And not that land costs fifty times as much in NYC.

Anyway, after a bitter Tivoli experience, I think our NY friend has washed his hands of the place: development in Philly can't compare with development in NYC, so screw it. Go for the quick, low risk money. Even though many other developers seem to be making money in Philly about now. I'd imagine the guy's cost basis in the site is very low, given how long he's owned it. So he'd probably make money no matter what he does, it's seems more a question of how much and how quickly. How I wish he'd have just sold out to a local developer with some balls and gotten the fuck out of Philly.

One reason why we need better land use planning - so as not to be completely vulnerable to the vagaries and mood swings of individual developers and speculators.

[Frontst17]

It's the convenience of having it inside the building. People buy anything. Food toiletries a towel video games sure a pack of gum whatever they want. And come back the next day and buy 4 completely different items. Because it's there. Maybe they want a 3500$ tv to go with their 3500$ apt. Or maybe a 950$ tv to go with their 950$ apt. Who knows who cares but people will go and they will get a coffee and they will come back.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

It's the convenience of having it inside the building. People buy anything. Food toiletries a towel video games sure a pack of gum whatever they want. And come back the next day and buy 4 completely different items. Because it's there. Maybe they want a 3500$ tv to go with their 3500$ apt. Or maybe a 950$ tv to go with their 950$ apt. Who knows who cares but people will go and they will get a coffee and they will come back.

Plus, I don't know whether City Targets do much in the way of groceries, but not every overpriced organically manured product at Whole Paycheck (as a friend called it) is necessarily more desirable than the run of the mill stuff that a Target might carry. The selection and price of household and baby supplies and cleaning products is better at a Target than Whole Foods as well. Before we moved from one suburb to another, I was always dropping into the Springfield Mall Target for something since my bank, office supply store, and a post office were all right there.

[summersm343]

Sooooo, who is going to make the "PHILADELPHIA Development Thread X"???

Because I REALLYYYY don't feel like it haha.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Kids? I think you'd be blown away at how old most of the posters are here. I live in Fitler Square and I have family who lives in Rittenhouse Square. We are both counting the days till the City Target at 19th and Chestnut opens. Your generalizations about "average residents" is significantly off-base.

As I said 3 times before.. I think the urban targets are genius in high density transient areas like Center City / Madison ave. areas. I assume most of you have heard of the travelers test of how easy it is to replace your items if the airlines loses your bag. This type of store is great to fill that need. Fairmount is not really like that. There aren't hotels. There isn't that much commerical foot traffic. It is in an area that they will need people to drive to it for it be successful. I think a full sized target is well suited to take over the Kmart space in the gallery or the bottom dollar food site on girard. so Londonee maybe you could answer me, what does one buy at Target everyday or every week that couldnt be found at another convenience store? I for one will continue to buy my gum at wawa and paper towels when I go grocery shopping.

A lot of you are using the word "convenient" as a reason to go to Target. There is nothing convenient about going into that parking lot except for people who don't live in the neighborhood.