PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[loverboie]

I reside in Wynnefield, So it’s nice to finally see something is about to happen to this building...The old Wynne Theater in Wynnefield West Philadelphia, on 54th Arlington Street....

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by cafeguy

people who shop at Wholefoods shop at Target (which is probably the top tier when compared to other similar stores such as Kmart and walmart). There aren't many types of big box stores out there and I doubt every person who shops at Wholefoods buys their underwear and other items at mall stores.

Seriously??? Its a big box store. Its clean. The people working there are nice. The people shopping there are nice. The idea that anyone would think otherwise is ridiculous and your opinions are incredibly classist. I'm happy target is coming here. Its a great replacement and will be a HUGE addition for not just the "sophisticated not-trash people" of fairmount as well as those lower income individuals from Francisville.

I just had a minute to do a little more research on this. The average size of a normal Target is a little less than 100,000 square feet so it is much closer in size to their new line of urban Target stores. I was imagining black friday type sales on TV's driving people to clog up the already atrocious parking lot. Big box stores obviously rely on big parking lots and roads because they need lots of consumers to fill up such big stores. Big box store Target is the last thing a neighborhood like Fairmount needs. Big Box stores have an inward looking mentality towards development, when we want the complete opposite to improve the pedestrian neighborhood experience. Target is not a store to shop at everyday either unlike a grocery store so ,in my opinion, their targeted shopper is not a resident of the immediate neighborhood, that's why I think the urban ones will do well in places like Center City where it is highly transient. This one will do good because there is a parking lot.

I haven't ever had an employee be mean to me but never do I remember the store to be very clean or the people overly nice. They aren't always well stocked either. I wasn't implying everyone who shops at Target is trash either, that was wrong of me to imply anyone is. If I am 100% truthful, I have been to both Target and Wholefoods in the last two weeks. They both service their purposes. However, there is no denying that a discount store attracts that minivan driving newports 100s smoking lady looking for children's undies on the low. Is that really what we need at this location with all that has happened around it? I feel like the former Bottom Dollar Food site on Girard would be a much more appropriate site for a full sized Target.

[iheartphilly]

U.S. retailers account for 5 trillion dollars of our GDP. The Target here will do well, just like most Targets do. That's what they do!

[hammersklavier]

Target is simply reskinning the existing box. It isn't what any of us wanted, but it's not like they're flattening something for that box, either. I'm disappointed but not surprised.

IIRC that box has ~22k sf selling space. That makes it about the same size as the Target Expresses they're putting in along Chestnut.

Kvetching about it stops now. Usually I let these kinds of things go, but this conversation is spiraling downward real fast. It would have been nice to see an intensification of this site (or even a bigger Target), but there is no way you, me, Inga, Kenney, or anyone could coerce the developer to do so. If they want to leave money on the table, that's their decision. End of discussion.

Originally Posted by loverboie

I reside in Wynnefield, So it’s nice to finally see something is about to happen to this building...The old Wynne Theater in Wynnefield West Philadelphia, on 54th Arlington Street....

Nice! Wynnefield is one of the city's more underappreciated neighborhoods. Here's to seeing it get a little bit better!

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by summersm343

^^Ugh. I hate whoever owns this plot. Should've been redeveloped with Whole Foods moving. Now we have a suburban big box store here for at least 15-20 years.

I have the dude's phone number if you want to tell him directly lol. Its an NYC developer-- they also did the Tivoli nearby.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

I have the dude's phone number if you want to tell him directly lol. Its an NYC developer-- they also did the Tivoli nearby.

Yep. PM or text me and give it to me haha. I'm going to call him. I actually know someone who is looking for sites to develop who he could partner with unless the Target deal is already a done deal which would suck.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Yep. PM or text me and give it to me haha. I'm going to call him. I actually know someone who is looking for sites to develop who he could partner with unless the Target deal is already a done deal which would suck.

Good!

[Frontst17]

I'm sorry temple guy but you couldn't be more wrong... I work at target and people love target all walks of life. And not only that but I'd say at least 70% of our customers make 150k plus. In this area that's exactly the type of people this target will attract as well as everyone else who just loves target. I'm fact I'm sure when you ask the people in the neighborhood in the next few years, one of the first things they'll say about the neighborhood is the convenience of a target down the street. Target is NOT Walmart... Much much higher quality and they hold their stores to a much higher standard.

[Skyscraper.Phanatic]

i actually think the Target store is a good idea. The entire Art Museum / Spring Garden area is underserved by retail and restaurants. If someone wants to buy that complex for the right price let them come forward; until then there are plenty of lots to develop like the entire parking lot at Broad and Spring Garden St. Can anyone imagine two twin high rises of about 500 feet there with ground floor retail and underground parking? Mixed use office / condos or hotel / apartment?

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by Skyscraper.Phanatic

i actually think the Target store is a good idea. The entire Art Museum / Spring Garden area is underserved by retail and restaurants. If someone wants to buy that complex for the right price let them come forward; until then there are plenty of lots to develop like the entire parking lot at Broad and Spring Garden St. Can anyone imagine two twin high rises of about 500 feet there with ground floor retail and underground parking? Mixed use office / condos or hotel / apartment?

Let's see it happen! With its BSL access (24/7 on the weekends), proximity to Center City, and the rapid development of the accompanying area, there is no fathomable reason why those parking lots should be there. With the Divine Lorraine and 1300 Fairmount developments, along with the development on Broad and Callowhill, it is only a matter of time before the surface lots on Broad and Spring Garden bite the dust!

[jjv007]

Interesting tidbit:
It took 4 years, 2 months, and 9 days (September 10, 2009 - November 19, 2013) to get through the last development thread after going just over 500 pages.
It has thus far taken us 2 years, 1 month, and 3 days (November 19, 2013 - December 22, 2015) to reach Page 498. If this thread wraps up or reaches 501 pages in the next one or two days, it will have reached the same number of posts as Development Thread VIII (the previous one) in exactly half the time.
Pretty cool, eh?

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I'm sorry temple guy but you couldn't be more wrong... I work at target and people love target all walks of life. And not only that but I'd say at least 70% of our customers make 150k plus. In this area that's exactly the type of people this target will attract as well as everyone else who just loves target. I'm fact I'm sure when you ask the people in the neighborhood in the next few years, one of the first things they'll say about the neighborhood is the convenience of a target down the street. Target is NOT Walmart... Much much higher quality and they hold their stores to a much higher standard.

Yeah, also don't know where TempleGuy is coming from with those comments. Everyone in Center City I know has always wanted a Target closer since it's annoying to have to drive to. And Center City isn't exactly the low-rent district. All the same, what is with these disparaging comments about people with lower incomes?? Sometimes the level of callousness here is really jaw-dropping. Even more so since some are writing these things on a public forum (sort of strange not to have any scruples about that). Not saying at all it's not valid or acceptable to talk about different income levels as far as patrons of different brands related to development in the city. Just don't get why anyone is calling any category of people "trash".

[1487]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

Yeah, also don't know where TempleGuy is coming from with those comments. Everyone in Center City I know has always wanted a Target closer since it's annoying to have to drive to. And Center City isn't exactly the low-rent district. All the same, what is with these disparaging comments about people with lower incomes?? Sometimes the level of callousness here is really jaw-dropping. Even more so since some are writing these things on a public forum (sort of strange not to have any scruples about that). Not saying at all it's not valid or acceptable to talk about different income levels as far as patrons of different brands related to development in the city. Just don't get why anyone is calling any category of people "trash".

Anyone who thinks Target is a sign that a neighborhood is going down hill is an idiot. Period. The lack of exposure and intelligence displayed by some here is a bit scary. I used to frequent the Target near City ave when I lived relatively close by. A huge proportion of shoppers were from the Mainline side of City Ave and if you went there on a weekday evening you would see dozens of professionals who had stopped in after work wearing their work attire.

[1487]

Originally Posted by br323206

I must be an enigma. I enjoy shopping at both Whole Foods and Target.



Also, ya'll forgot the very nice Target in West Philly on City Ave.

Impossible! No one with a job and the kind of income I consider respectable would shop at Target and Whole Foods. Stop the lies.....

Either you are classy and upper middle class (with at least 2 degrees) and worthy of setting foot in my version of CC or you shop at Target- can't be both. Make up your mind!

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I'm sorry temple guy but you couldn't be more wrong... I work at target and people love target all walks of life. And not only that but I'd say at least 70% of our customers make 150k plus. In this area that's exactly the type of people this target will attract as well as everyone else who just loves target. I'm fact I'm sure when you ask the people in the neighborhood in the next few years, one of the first things they'll say about the neighborhood is the convenience of a target down the street. Target is NOT Walmart... Much much higher quality and they hold their stores to a much higher standard.

I actually agree with you on everything you are saying but I feel the need to correct one thing to add some perspective. It is very unlikely that 70% of your customers make 150k+. Only 2% of the U.S. population makes that much money. Target wouldn't have enough customers if they relied that heavily on people with 150k+ incomes. There's just not enough of them to sustain the business. Very few stores can say that they rely on people with that high of incomes. We're talking mostly just high-end clothing stores, definitely no big box or general retailers.

That being said, I found some data from 2012 that says that the median Target customer has a household income of $64,000. That is in comparison to a median U.S. income of $51,759 in 2012, a median Philadelphia income of $34k for the city of Philadelphia in 2011, and a median income for the whole Delaware Valley of $62k in 2014.

So yes, Target customers are more affluent than the median citizen of the country, region, or city.

[McBane]

Seriously, what's with the obsession over Target? When Target announced that they were opening up a store in Brickstone's development at 11th and Chestnut, the news was welcomed. And then Target announced they were opening at 19th and Chestnut in Pearl's new project and again no one seemed to mind.

[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

Yeah, also don't know where TempleGuy is coming from with those comments. Everyone in Center City I know has always wanted a Target closer since it's annoying to have to drive to. And Center City isn't exactly the low-rent district. All the same, what is with these disparaging comments about people with lower incomes?? Sometimes the level of callousness here is really jaw-dropping. Even more so since some are writing these things on a public forum (sort of strange not to have any scruples about that). Not saying at all it's not valid or acceptable to talk about different income levels as far as patrons of different brands related to development in the city. Just don't get why anyone is calling any category of people "trash".

Its one of the things that makes forums like this as well as those on facebook feel incredibly off-putting. For a lack of a better term, its the "brogressive" and it makes historic locals or people not in the fold feel marginalized. When considering development or how projects impact the city, we need a more integrative outlook on things.

[TempleGuy1000]

I like how I am crucified for saying that a big discount box store doesn't fit into the neighborhood lol. Comparing this area to city Ave is near laughable. It's alright, it's obvious most of you are kids who have no idea what happens in this city when a place puts a big "EBT Accepted" sign out front. really fits in with one of the most expensive art collections in North America. Target is not a nice store especially the ones in Philly. It's a public forum and I am entitled to my opinion. You are kidding yourselves if you think an average resident of Fairmount would go into Target more than once a month. That spot deserves something better that suites the residents of the neighborhood better. Not a parking lot store thay needs external customers to survive. Btw I actually live in walking distance. Does anyone else?

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I like how I am crucified for saying that a big discount box store doesn't fit into the neighborhood lol. Comparing this area to city Ave is near laughable. It's alright, it's obvious most of you are kids who have no idea what happens in this city when a place puts a big "EBT Accepted" sign out front. really fits in with one of the most expensive art collections in North America. Target is not a nice store especially the ones in Philly. It's a public forum and I am entitled to my opinion. You are kidding yourselves if you think an average resident of Fairmount would go into Target more than once a month. That spot deserves something better that suites the residents of the neighborhood better. Not a parking lot store thay needs external customers to survive. Btw I actually live in walking distance. Does anyone else?

Something of which you and some others here seem to be unaware is Target's push--wholly SEPARATE from it's suburban big-box ethos--into a decidedly urban, hip, and Millennial market through its small-format, explicitly "urban" stores. Indeed, Philly is only one of the latest markets to be targeted (pun intended) for these "urban" Targets, with such hip and popular urban destinations as San Francisco, Boston, Manhattan (including a small-format urban Target in TriBeCa, believe it or not), and uber-hip, trendy, and Millennial Brooklyn already in the mix:

http://fortune.com/2015/11/12/target-manhattan-small-store/

These are NOT your parents'--or grandparents'--suburban, big-box Targets with multi-acre parking lots. And Target seems to understand quite well that you don't put a store intended for an essentially suburban or non-urban-core clientele in the middle of a popular urban-core neighborhood. These are NOT designed for folks from the suburbs, or outer-ring city neighborhoods, to load the kids into the car or van to drive into greater Center City to do their weekly Target shopping.

And before anyone comments further on this topic, I strongly urge them to read that Fortune article to which I linked :

The TriBeCa location will cater to a wealthy neighborhood that’s also full of tourists.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I like how I am crucified for saying that a big discount box store doesn't fit into the neighborhood lol. Comparing this area to city Ave is near laughable. It's alright, it's obvious most of you are kids who have no idea what happens in this city when a place puts a big "EBT Accepted" sign out front. really fits in with one of the most expensive art collections in North America. Target is not a nice store especially the ones in Philly. It's a public forum and I am entitled to my opinion. You are kidding yourselves if you think an average resident of Fairmount would go into Target more than once a month. That spot deserves something better that suites the residents of the neighborhood better. Not a parking lot store thay needs external customers to survive. Btw I actually live in walking distance. Does anyone else?

Yeah, I grew up three blocks away and am now back, on the CC side of the Parkway and Target is a really useful store to have nearby (even if yes—I'd prefer it to be in a mixed-use higher density development). I also have exactly zero problems with people who use EBT cards. Why would I? Manhattan (which, by the way, has a ton of Target stores) has become progressively less interesting since it's basically just a playground for the rich now. I know this is getting off topic. We shouldn't have to have these kinds of exchanges. And as I said, there's nothing wrong with discussing the income demographics of Philadelphia and its relationship to development. I just don't see why we have to be insulting about it.