Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[waves]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

A skytrain (Canada Line) to the Ferry terminal (something I've also advocated) would drive huge amounts of foot traffic to BC Ferries in the way buses never will. Which is great from a sustainability perspective. With the move to CNG engines, the Ferries are here to stay IMO (ie: we are never getting a bridge).

The problem is the lack of foot passenger services on the other side. Victoria needs to get it's rail plans going too.

BC Ferries (the government, yes) and that giant mall in the area would both be huge beneficiaries, and could be encouraged to kick in some millions to make it all happen.

As a side note, what options for actual track and station expansion are laid out in the P3 contract? It might be better to wait until the 30 years is up and InTransit is theoretically out of the picture.

What contract are you referring to?

I had suggested along the lines of this route layout, but that's only my rough drawing on a map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zJ7CqXv4lWSg.kGgeLLwigjQs&usp=sharing

[waves]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Given the chunkyness of demand and the population of the area, if there must be rail service to Delta and the Ferry terminals, it sounds a lot like something that calls far more for a mainline rail solution, such as import DMU like the Ottawa O-train, rather than a high frequency automated metro.

I really am against this. I think you need to stay consistent with the technology, if you make people switch to a different transportation mode (rapid rail to heavy rail) it will significantly deter people from using it. It needs to be a seamless experience. I think the Canada Line is a great option because it is closer to heavy rail than it's LIM counterparts the Expo, Millennium Line and Evergreen Line and, I believe but I'm not sure, cheaper on capital costs.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think expanding existing infrastructure should always be the first idea considered. In the case of automated transit, Canada Line control can easily plan to have 3-4 trains sent out for each boat that comes in. Furthermore they can coordinate with BC Ferries and sent out trains based on boat size, schedule (holidays, etc), even accommodating delays and/or actual foot traffic boarding each boat (ok, I'm dreaming now).

How about using Compass to pay for your Ferry fare?

But if part of the Canada Line is being tied to ferry arrivals and departures, then that introduces a new sources of disruption and dispatching difficulties, which are things to avoid on a high frequency rail system

I agree with the notion that we should avoid creating incompatible infrastructure, but I just don't see how the Canada Line is a really good fit for the sort of operation we're talking about. You're talking about building a metro line through a lot of green fields (though not necessitating the precise track geometry of the LIM lines, I would imagine that the Canada Line could be built for much cheaper at grade) And I would reckon that the best place to extend the Canada Line would be more towards Steveston, where the pattern of development is more amenable to transit and a large part of the old interurban right of way is still intact.

A Bridgeport-Tswassen Ferry DMU line could be expanded with branches serving a number of south-of-fraser locations, providing access to the ferry, the Airport, Richmond jobs, and the Canada Line into Vancouver

As for the Compass Card, they should definitely install it at ferry terminals, particularly the commuter-heavy Horseshoe Bay terminal.

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

It would cost less to build a new ferry terminal at YVR than to build Skytrain to Tsawwassen.

Ron.

As a boater, I know the water around YVR fairly well. It is extremely shallow along way out and I would think the dredging required, plus the infastructure and of course the enviro stuff would make YVR more costly than expropriating a farm land easement to the Tawassin Ferry Terminal.

Compass Cards, IMO s/b good for the BC Ferries as well as both False Creek Ferries.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by waves

What contract are you referring to?

I had suggested along the lines of this route layout, but that's only my rough drawing on a map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zJ7CqXv4lWSg.kGgeLLwigjQs&usp=sharing

InTransit has a contract to run the Canada Line for 30 years (after building and financing it). There are already set values attached to running more trains on the line, I'm wondering what else has already been scoped and priced over the life of the deal.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

But if part of the Canada Line is being tied to ferry arrivals and departures, then that introduces a new sources of disruption and dispatching difficulties, which are things to avoid on a high frequency rail system.

The Skytrain and Canada Line do the same thing today around events at Rogers Arena and BC Place, as well as less frequent events like the Sun Run.

This would add some complexity, but the flexibility of an automated system far exceeds any alternatives like buses, LRT with drivers, etc.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The Skytrain and Canada Line do the same thing today around events at Rogers Arena and BC Place, as well as less frequent events like the Sun Run.

This would add some complexity, but the flexibility of an automated system far exceeds any alternatives like buses, LRT with drivers, etc.

They don't really. For events at Rogers Arena and BC Place, they increase service frequency for the event time with a buffer on either end. How do you do that for the ferries that arrive every two hours (for the Swartz Bay run in the off-season) or every two and a half hours (for the Duke Point run) or whatever frequency Gulf Islands ferries arrive at? There's no one "peak time" for ferry passengers -- there are multiple peaks throughout the day caused by different ferry arrival and departure frequencies.

[ssiguy]

There are far too many other needed projects than a Ladner Canada Line extension.

As a WR guy I can also say that such an idea would go over like hellfire down here. It would make our trip to Vancouver and YVR MUCH longer. The bus is very fast and direct and a Canada Line extension to Ladner would be completely out of the way and slower.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There are far too many other needed projects than a Ladner Canada Line extension.

As a WR guy I can also say that such an idea would go over like hellfire down here. It would make our trip to Vancouver and YVR MUCH longer. The bus is very fast and direct and a Canada Line extension to Ladner would be completely out of the way and slower.

Hear, hear. The benefit of the new bridge will be much more reliable schedules for the buses that cross the river. That alone will make those routes a lot more attractive. And for buses like the 620 (Tsawwassen Ferry) it's not like Skytrain would be all that much faster, since most of the route is on freeways and highways anyway.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by waves

I really am against this. I think you need to stay consistent with the technology, if you make people switch to a different transportation mode (rapid rail to heavy rail) it will significantly deter people from using it. It needs to be a seamless experience. I think the Canada Line is a great option because it is closer to heavy rail than it's LIM counterparts the Expo, Millennium Line and Evergreen Line and, I believe but I'm not sure, cheaper on capital costs.

The problem is that while the Canada Line to Tsawwassen would more reliable and more comfortable than bus service, it would be so much slower than bus service over a GMT Bridge using HOV lanes and dedicated exits. The bus would average around 90km/h to the ferries while the Canada Line would average around 60km/h. The Canada line would have more stops than the current 620 bus (so it can be used by commuters too), so it would actually be a longer ride.

Extending rapid transit to Ladner and Tsawwassen would need to be an express service to attract drivers from their cars and buses.

So I think a DMU/EMU makes sense (if you really wanted to so something).

You could actually use the Shell ROW (as I believe it will soon be abandoned) to get the tracks from Bridgeport to the GMT bridge, then convert some lanes over, and build tracks through Ladner and to the ferries. You could build fairly simple tracks and even go diesel at first and convert to electric later (like the Pearson Union Express).

Trains could then run at pretty high speeds (with only stops in Ladner, and Steveston) straight to Bridgeport. You could run them regularly between Ladner and Bridgeport for commuters.

Scheduling trains around the ferries is actually pretty easy. A train arrives full of people going to the ferry, then waits 20 minutes and leaves full with people coming from the ferries (just like the buses do now). You could also use longer trains for the ferry runs, so you have just one driver for hundreds of passengers.

The problem with sending rail to Ladner is it eats up 2 lanes on the new bridge. That would make travel slower for the 351 bus from South Surrey. So I don't think you could use up those lanes unless the solution also addresses South Surrey travel patterns.

By using a DMU, you could lay pretty cheap track all the way down the 99 (from a fork at the Bridge) to the South Surrey park and ride. From the SSPnR it would be a lightning fast express trip on the train (I think you could make it hit speeds of 120km/h, faster than road travel) into Bridgeport. I think using the Canada line for that segment would be too slow and cost prohibitive.

To make all this worth while you need 3 things to happen first. First, you need some more density in the Ladner/Tsawwassen area. Then you need light rail from Surrey Center to White Rock Center.

That way you can use the LRT or local service buses to transfer to the express train service at the SSPnR. Soon there will probably be a bus leaving every 5 minutes or less (at peak) from the SSPnR bound for Bridgeport. It would make sense to replace that with an efficient express train every 10.

Then the last key to make this work is you need rapid transit in Victoria. Right now the bus there is so busy and so long, most travelers to Victoria depend on a ride on the other side, so that limits people making spontaneous travel plans. Victoria is a great place to escape to for a weekend (or even a really long day trip, the beer is totally worth it, believe me) and having a reliable and fast transit connection on both sides might make our 2 cities feel like one large region.

Heck, with DMUs you could actually load them onto the ferry (like they do in some places in Europe) so you could leave your luggage on the train instead of lug it around the ferry (like being on the PCL bus).

But I think this is a long way off. Like maybe around 2025 we can start to seriously consider maybe looking at possibly doing it in the near future.

(speaking of PCL, they might picket the ferries this holiday season, but they can only do it when a PCL bus is at the terminal, so only during odd hour sailings. So if you are travelling this season, aim for an Even hour sailing if possible *the more you know music starts playing*).

[Express691]

Leaks of 2015 NFI XDE60 for 96 B-line

https://flic.kr/p/BQKyaN

[SOSS]

Much of the recent discussion is about getting foot traffic to Tsawwassen since it services Victoria via Swartz Bay... Below is my solution but first by backing: Metro Vancouver's transit major hub is Waterfront Station. If there was a single location that would be considered easiest to get to for anyone it would be Waterfront. I am unfamiliar with Victoria's transit but based on this map it is centered seaside downtown.

So if the goal is to increase foot traffic from Vancouver to Victoria it makes the most sense to connect the two downtown cores directly via a pedestrian ferry. This would avoid the need from someone, say in Burnaby to SkyTrain downtown, hop on the Canada Line, hop on a bus to the ferry terminal, hop on the ferry, hop off ferry onto bus at Swartz Bay to get to Victoria. Imagine the time savings.

And this is proposed by Riverside Marine tentatively schedule to begin operation in 2016. Hopefully they're successful.

New ferry proposed between Victoria and Vancouver

A new private passenger ferry between downtown Victoria and Vancouver could, if approved, begin operations as early as 2016.

Australian-based Riverside Marine announced this week they intend to run a vessel carrying about 300 passengers from the CPR Steamship Terminal in Victoria to downtown Vancouver.

The cost per passenger would be $80 one way for a trip along the familiar B.C. Ferries route that would last about three hours.

"It will be an experience more than a high-speed journey," said Riverside Marine CEO Hume Kenneth Campbell.

"We want to not only go through the area but interpret what we are seeing."

Riverside Marine runs a variety of marine operations in Australia, including car and passenger ferries, fast ferries, and charter ferries.

The company has submitted an application to the Greater Victoria Harbour Authority asking to lease space in the CPR Steamship Terminal.

Won't compete with BC Ferries

Harbour authority CEO Ian Robertson said the service would not compete with B.C. Ferries, but cater to those who would consider taking a helicopter or seaplane to the island.

"It's a service that appeals to those higher-end travellers, which is good news for tourism in Victoria because that means they'll be coming here with money to spend," he said.

Robertson said he believes the service will succeed where previous attempts failed because the route is billed more as an experience than point-to-point transportation.

Ocean Networks Canada, which operates two cabled ocean observatories, has also submitted a proposal to operate a public outreach and visitor education centre in the Steamship Terminal.

There are other vessels that run out of Victoria's harbour.

The Clipper carries passengers to downtown Seattle, and whale-watching company Prince of Whales offers one-way connections to Vancouver and Seattle, as well as full day tours that include travel between Victoria and Vancouver.

CBC News Link

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SOSS

So if the goal is to increase foot traffic from Vancouver to Victoria it makes the most sense to connect the two downtown cores directly via a pedestrian ferry.

I've seen a couple of attempts at making this a viable business in my years and none of them has lasted very long. I doubt that the "tourist" model they're talking about will fare any better. The ferries themselves are way cheaper even after you include the coach fare and there's plenty of competition for sightseeing cruises around the harbour.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I've seen a couple of attempts at making this a viable business in my years and none of them has lasted very long. I doubt that the "tourist" model they're talking about will fare any better. The ferries themselves are way cheaper even after you include the coach fare and there's plenty of competition for sightseeing cruises around the harbour.

Yes, the last attempt was in the early 90s and it failed. Costs where very high especially since the US charged hefty fees to cross US waters. Not sure if this new venture will be subject to the same fees. I do think this type of service could succeed though. The time savings is huge. When I learned about the new service I honestly though, hmm maybe I'll make a trip with my kid. I am born and raised in BC and have only been to the island once in my life. I wonder what price point and frequency would be required to make it more of a commuter style option - $80 one way is on the high end IMO.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SOSS

Yes, the last attempt was in the early 90s and it failed. Costs where very high especially since the US charged hefty fees to cross US waters. Not sure if this new venture will be subject to the same fees. I do think this type of service could succeed though. The time savings is huge. When I learned about the new service I honestly though, hmm maybe I'll make a trip with my kid. I am born and raised in BC and have only been to the island once in my life. I wonder what price point and frequency would be required to make it more of a commuter style option - $80 one way is on the high end IMO.

BC Ferries is about what, $16 per person? Plus $80 for a car?

Helijet I think you can get $99 each way but that might be a sale price.

Part of the problem is that the Straight of Georgia is a nasty piece of water considering it's sheltered by Vancouver Island. There are currents and it can get quite rough. I remember part of the problem with previous efforts is making the trip fast enough, but still being comfortable in a smaller vessel. If you've ever been whale watching you'll know what I mean.

[KPELLY]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

BC Ferries is about what, $16 per person? Plus $80 for a car?

Helijet I think you can get $99 each way but that might be a sale price.

Part of the problem is that the Straight of Georgia is a nasty piece of water considering it's sheltered by Vancouver Island. There are currents and it can get quite rough. I remember part of the problem with previous efforts is making the trip fast enough, but still being comfortable in a smaller vessel. If you've ever been whale watching you'll know what I mean.

Prices used to be like that 5-10 years ago, but its more like $150-300 each way to Victoria for harbour air and helijet.

Nanaimo is about $100-150.

[SFUVancouver]

As nice as it is to imagine a future in which the Canada Line is extended south to Tswwassen and the ferry terminal, I don't think that is very realistic in the near- to medium-term. The distances are too great, the demand too small, and the development opportunities for transit trip-generating activities are too few. I could see the 620 Ferry-Bridgeport Station gradually being ramped up to FTN-levels (15 minute maximum headway, 15+ hours a day), but beyond that I doubt we'll see much investment and certainly not rapid transit.

As for a potentially plausible long-range Canada Line extension, were money to drop from the sky, I could maybe see an extension of the Canada Line down Number 3 Road with stops at Granville Street (to capture the remaining higher-density development area of the city), Williams Street (larger-scale redevelopment potential on the southeast and southwest corners, plus room for a bus loop for south Richmond buses to feed into), then south to Steveston Highway and east without a station until we get to Steveston Highway and Number 5 Road. Ironwood Mall and the strip mall on the southeast corner hold potential for larger-scale redevelopment a la Townline's "The Gardens" on the former Fantasy Gardens site and there would be room for a bus loop into which the northbound highway buses could potentially terminate instead of continuing on to Bridgeport station, though this wouldn't necessarily be an improvement in travel time for passengers. The large industrial park south of Ironwood Mall could see incremental redevelopment into a more modern business park a la Glenlyon Business Park in Burnaby, complete with sidewalks and similar pedestrian improvements, which are wholly absent currently.

From here there's virtually no rationale for further continuation south, however if an attempt were to be made, hopping the South Arm of the Fraser via the new bridge would let the line continue onwards with a station and park and ride facility serving "downtown" Ladner, a station and more urban park and ride facility to serve "downtown" Tswwassen, and then a terminus at the Tswwassen Ferry Terminal would all be logical station locations, with the line of course running at grade for as much of the route as possible. I could see the line spurring White Rock-like incremental mixed-use mid- and low high-rise developments in Tswwassen in particular, and modest mid-rise in-fill in Ladner.

With all that said, we have so many other higher priorities for our region that this notional extension, is a low, low priority in my mind; 30+ years out at the very minimum.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by KPELLY

Prices used to be like that 5-10 years ago, but its more like $150-300 each way to Victoria for harbour air and helijet.

Plus, the Helijet (Vancouver next to the Seabus terminal) to Victoria (Ogden Point) one-way is only 30 minutes.

That's a massive time savings for business people.
The MLAs probably all use it too.

[Conrad Yablonski]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

As nice as it is to imagine a future in which the Canada Line is extended south to Tswwassen and the ferry terminal, I don't think that is very realistic in the near- to medium-term. The distances are too great, the demand too small, and the development opportunities for transit trip-generating activities are too few. I could see the 620 Ferry-Bridgeport Station gradually being ramped up to FTN-levels (15 minute maximum headway, 15+ hours a day), but beyond that I doubt we'll see much investment and certainly not rapid transit...

Quite agree-there was mention of dedicated service to the new Tsawwassen Mills shopping mall when it was announced but nothing since and most foot passengers are in fact connecting with private vehicles at either end on the trip.

Note I take that ferry all the time/have used all the options and Yes air service is most convenient and always will be plus it's a gorgeous flight most days.

[Metro-One]

The idea of extending the Canada Line to the ferry terminal is really, really, really silly.

The travel patterns of ferry traffic do not match the short train high frequency pattern of our metro system.

not to mention the low density of the populated areas it would serve, and the long distances of rural farmland between them.

With the future direct connection from the highway to Bridgeport Station and full HOV centre lanes down Highway 99, rapid bus service will be more than enough for this connection, and as others have said, even faster than a Canada Line extension.

In the far future, maybe a heavy commuter rail type system can be used, but metro, nope.