Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Global had an item last night using clips from one of the old films showing the 1 mile test track operating from Main Street

1983: On Track: early SkyTrain project film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsSXdSjU1I

1984: Rapid Transit Rapid Transition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKz73zLxb30

1985: Going to Town
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kGEdcYTPs

(no laughing at the fashion sense back then)

I missed the news piece as I slept in that night but Global has two other fancy videos up on their site. One of the opening (Apparently they had a number of derailments, plus the doors didn't open at New West) and a race by train and car from New West to Waterfront where the SkyTrain lost badly.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2397630/from-the-vault-5-videos-showing-skytrains-evolution-in-the-1980s/

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I missed the news piece as I slept in that night but Global has two other fancy videos up on their site. One of the opening (Apparently they had a number of derailments, plus the doors didn't open at New West) and a race by train and car from New West to Waterfront where the SkyTrain lost badly.

I remember seeing that race one. I'd love to see someone do it again today.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

There's a lot to be said for maximum frequency as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're quoting longer trains with bigger loading gauges running at 75 second frequencies.

[Reecemartin]

Does the skytrain presently have an art program? After doing lots of research on the TTC and London underground it really seems we could benefit from such a program art really improves the station atmosphere

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Does the skytrain presently have an art program? After doing lots of research on the TTC and London underground it really seems we could benefit from such a program art really improves the station atmosphere

Jordan Bateman would probably label it as more Translink waste.

There are art projects but I think anything permanent is city-driven.

[WarrenC12]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/green-line-triple-funding-1.3364080

Calgary doesn't seem to have too much trouble raising a ton of money for public transit. They are funding $1.5B of an overall 4.5B LRT extension.

Can somebody help explain where this comes from? Is there a specific line item on property taxes?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/green-line-triple-funding-1.3364080

Calgary doesn't seem to have too much trouble raising a ton of money for public transit. They are funding $1.5B of an overall 4.5B LRT extension.

Can somebody help explain where this comes from? Is there a specific line item on property taxes?

I'm not entirely sure how this works, I think this started when the Province changed their funding formula for the Education budget around 2013. Instead of having schools funded partly by City and partly by Province, it became just a Province-funded item. This meant that the City had $50+ million in excess city taxes (from their now un-needed education budget), which they returned to the taxpayers in 2013.

A group of people realized that the roughly $40 being returned to each family could be used by the City on other projects, like a new LRT line. After a few years of debate, the City council recently decided to use that annual $50 Million extra in City taxes for transportation for the next 30 years instead of reducing the local homeowner's taxes by $40 per year.

That resulted in an extra $1.5 Billion available for the new LRT line. Plus the $1.5 Billion that Harper doled out just before calling the election. That leaves the remaining $1.5 Billion from the Province, which has indicated they are willing to invest. This changed the timing of the new LRT line, which was supposed to start out as a dedicated transit (bus) ROW, then around 2030 be converted to LRT.

With this new City funding, they will go directly to LRT on the transit ROW, with construction starting as early as 2017 on the segment from downtown then east and south to the new South Hospital campus and Seton. It is likely that the new North LRT line on Centre St will be built too, but the planning for that line is several years behind the new S.E. line.


I'm not sure if something like a property tax dedicated to transit uses can get passed in the Vancouver Metro area, because of all the different City jurisdictions (witness the transit plebiscite fiasco earlier this year) .

More likely, Vancouver could enact a transit-oriented property tax with revenues dedicated to transit projects entirely within the City boundaries (ie: Broadway & UBC Skytrain). CoV has hinted they are prepared to pay the extra costs involved to get Broadway & UBC Skytrain built all-underground.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Express691

https://t.co/jEueTgevSt

3 more (5 total) videos, one showing proposals for a now Canada-line extension to S. Delta and a proposal to cut the current 160 route to a superferry route.

Yeah, then Harcourt's NDP came into power and the Whalley extension was the only one sufficiently advanced to be retained.

Without Van Der Zalm pushing for his Richmond riding, the link to the south fell off the table in favour of the NDP's northeast sector ridings.

The NDP replaced the marine ferry with the West Coast Express.

BC Transit also re-evaluated the Lougheed extension as a spur off the Expo Line and decided that a separate parallel line along Broadway was a better solution to avoid overloading the Expo Line.

That was the Broadway LRT - which the Glen Clark NDP then changed to SkyTrain and built as the Millennium Line to serve the northeast.

[andasen]

Close I'll fix it

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I'm not entirely sure how this works, I think this started when the Province changed their funding formula for the Education budget around 2013. Instead of having schools funded partly by City and partly by Province, it became just a Province-funded item by Property Tax and the rest from general revenue. This meant that the City had $50+ million in excess city taxes property tax unclaimed by the province (from their now un-needed education budget), which they returned to the taxpayers in 2013.

A group of people realized that the roughly $40 being returned to each family could be used by the City on other projects, like a new LRT line. After a few years of debate, the City council recently decided to use that annual $50 Million extra in City taxes for transportation for the next 30 years instead of reducing the local homeowner's taxes by $40 per year.

That resulted in an extra $1.5 Billion available for the new LRT line. Plus the $1.5 Billion that Harper doled out just before calling the election. That leaves the remaining $1.5 Billion from the Province, which has indicated they are willing to invest. This changed the timing of the new LRT line, which was supposed to start out as a dedicated transit (bus) ROW, then around 2030 be converted to LRT.

With this new City funding, they will go directly to LRT on the transit ROW, with construction starting as early as 2017 on the segment from downtown then east and south to the new South Hospital campus and Seton. It is likely that the new North LRT line on Centre St will be built too, but the planning for that line is several years behind the new S.E. line.


I'm not sure if something like a property tax dedicated to transit uses can get passed in the Vancouver Metro area, because of all the different City jurisdictions (witness the transit plebiscite fiasco earlier this year) .

More likely, Vancouver could enact a transit-oriented property tax with revenues dedicated to transit projects entirely within the City boundaries (ie: Broadway & UBC Skytrain). CoV has hinted they are prepared to pay the extra costs involved to get Broadway & UBC Skytrain built all-underground.

My understanding is that Translink has the ability to affect the mill rate for property taxes within a certain percentage. (They need to get permission from the Mayor's council to go above this IIRC) At the end it it would just be a tax rate hike rather than capitalizing on tax inertia like what Calgary did.

[xd_1771]

The first next-gen artic for the 96 B-Line arrived this morning according to CPTDB reports. Apparently visible from Highway 1 at a place called Cullen Diesel. I could attempt a pass-by on the 555 later this afternoon.

[ssiguy]

I can't stand these "experts" who think we should change SkyTrain technology.

Would it have been my first choice?......No due to having few suppliers. That however doesn't change the fact that the SkyTrain is an excellent system. Safe, fast, frequent, reliable, cost-effective, comfortable..................the hallmarks of great transit.

Couple questions............how many cars {number and in total meters} will the Evergreen Line run from day one and are all the Expo/Mill/Ever SkyTrain stations 80 meters?

It just gets so confusing trying to compare capacity, train length, number of cars when you have 3 different types of vehicles...........thanks.

[WarrenC12]

Fassbender says no changes to Translink:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/translink-governance-change-mayors-1.3366570


BC Liberals promoting the Massey Bridge as the top request for federal infrastructure funding:

http://www.peacearchnews.com/news/362437381.html

So the mayors are getting shut out of trying to make some of the changes to Translink that the public wants, meanwhile the government is pushing their giant pet project bridge to get more federal funding, instead of the starved public transit system.

[officedweller]

It's a case of be careful what you wish for.

Recent memory recalls the region's mayors rejecting the now hugely successful Canada Line (on the "political" basis of it jumping the queue in front of the Evergreen Line).

And look at how Toronto has flip-flopped back and forth due to its politicians indecision / political posturing.

Politicians try to please everyone all of the time - that's not always possible.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It's a case of be careful what you wish for.

Recent memory recalls the region's mayors rejecting the now hugely successful Canada Line (on the "political" basis of it jumping the queue in front of the Evergreen Line).

And look at how Toronto has flip-flopped back and forth due to its politicians indecision / political posturing.

Politicians try to please everyone all of the time - that's not always possible.

My recollection was that the Mayors' Council objections to the RAV/Canada Line were about prioritization, with the Province-backed line jumping the queue over the Evergreen Line, as opposed to Mayors not believing in the merit of the RAV/Canada Line.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It's a case of be careful what you wish for.

Recent memory recalls the region's mayors rejecting the now hugely successful Canada Line (on the "political" basis of it jumping the queue in front of the Evergreen Line).

And look at how Toronto has flip-flopped back and forth due to its politicians indecision / political posturing.

Politicians try to please everyone all of the time - that's not always possible.

I'd much rather there be an argument over Broadway vs. Surrey extensions instead of what we have now, which is nothing.

[ssiguy]

Shame BC doesn't have a Premier like Ontario's Wynne who is funding 100% of new transit infrastructure and seems to be making new transit announcements every week.

Within 9 years GO transit will transform from rush hour diesel commuter rail to a near 600km fully electrified suburban rail system running every 15 minutes each way, all day. Clarke has never shown any interest in transit so I can't imagine she will start to. The only thing that may change her mind is if Trudeau puts strings attached on the money that a certain percentage of the funds must go to "green" infrastructure like wastewater or transit.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Shame BC doesn't have a Premier like Ontario's Wynne who is funding 100% of new transit infrastructure and seems to be making new transit announcements every week.

Within 9 years GO transit will transform from rush hour diesel commuter rail to a near 600km fully electrified suburban rail system running every 15 minutes each way, all day. Clarke has never shown any interest in transit so I can't imagine she will start to. The only thing that may change her mind is if Trudeau puts strings attached on the money that a certain percentage of the funds must go to "green" infrastructure like wastewater or transit.

I think the Federal Liberals will prioritize their funds towards green projects. Canada made some big promises at COP21 and building transit over roads will get us to our goals quicker. Yes roads move idling traffic but we all know that long term that traffic returns just to idle some more whereas transit - especially RAV/ALRT can move serious amounts of people.

[xd_1771]

It's also a lot more feasible in Toronto because of the flat terrain, wide/straight rail corridors, and extensive existing network. There's huge potential there; we don't have the same thing here. Before we think anything I think we ought to have a good discussion on what would be the barriers to an expansion of WCE service (i.e. could it be dual-tracked at all; electrification cost-benefits; interaction with freight rail; new rail bridges?; potential routes).

Pretty much anything heading east from the SOF would require a new Fraser River rail bridge and I think the engineering to get something like that working would be quite a challenge given the terrain, slopes, and existing railway layout. On top of that, almost all potential rail routes bypass major urban centres or are too indirect/curvy for efficient service.

My thinking is highway medians could have huge potential, i.e. a service over the Port Mann Bridge and down the median through to Abbotsford, linking up to the existing CN around Braid Station and continuing from there to Pacific Central and/or Waterfront (although as a start convincing everyone that putting a commuter rail where rapid buses could/already run could prove to be a little challenging)

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

It's also a lot more feasible in Toronto because of the flat terrain, wide/straight rail corridors, and extensive existing network. There's huge potential there; we don't have the same thing here. Before we think anything I think we ought to have a good discussion on what would be the barriers to an expansion of WCE service (i.e. could it be dual-tracked at all; electrification cost-benefits; interaction with freight rail; new rail bridges?; potential routes).

Pretty much anything heading east from the SOF would require a new Fraser River rail bridge and I think the engineering to get something like that working would be quite a challenge given the terrain, slopes, and existing railway layout. On top of that, almost all potential rail routes bypass major urban centres or are too indirect/curvy for efficient service.

My thinking is highway medians could have huge potential, i.e. a service over the Port Mann Bridge and down the median through to Abbotsford, linking up to the existing CN around Braid Station and continuing from there to Pacific Central and/or Waterfront (although as a start convincing everyone that putting a commuter rail where rapid buses could/already run could prove to be a little challenging)

The major problem with a Commuter Rail expansion has more to do with the lack of existing rail infrastructure and the demand for freight. Toronto doesn't have this problem because they're not "the port city." Halifax(CN) and Saint John (CN) are the Eastern port cities. In BC Vancouver(CN/CP) and Prince Rupert(CN) are the Port cities. CP's eastern-most port is Montreal.

There's a lot of "abandoned" rail infrastructure in Central/Eastern Canada because they had almost a century of development and rail competition before Western Canada. BUT, in BC, CPR Rail owned the majority of the rail infrastructure, there was no competition, and what competition there was, was gone by the great depression.

The area around Pacific Central station used to have more rail infrastructure when it was Canadian National (16 tracks to the station.) Great Northern Station used to exist just north of it but was torn down in the 1960's. That's where the new Hospital is going to be built. (Great Northern Rail is now BNSF.)

Also fun stuff: This is what those stations looked like

[WarrenC12]

Jeff Nagel has another good article, with a fantastic timeline of Translink and the continual mess the provincial government has made of it:

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/362478901.html