Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

I wonder after people get used to the new Mark III trains if they will make the Mark II trains into 4-car sets by taking off the ends of cars 202-203, 206-207, etc and make then C-cars so people can walk through the entire train.

Nope.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

I wonder after people get used to the new Mark III trains if they will make the Mark II trains into 4-car sets by taking off the ends of cars 202-203, 206-207, etc and make then C-cars so people can walk through the entire train.

I seem to recall (I don't know who's marketing materials I was reading, probably Siemens) that "C" cars, the ones that aren't at the end of the trains in metros can be powered or "unpowered" cars. Basically if it costs the same to produce a A/B car as a C car, then the A/B pair gets you more trains. If the C car is unpowered (eg it has wheels but no motors/regenerative-brakes) then it's cheaper to produce, but might introduce problems depending on the design of the system and grades it needs to climb.

So converting any of the MKII's into C cars just removes flexibility from the system. It would be more cost effective to buy/build "unpowered" C cars for those trains when they get mid-life refurbished.

[Mac Write]

Mark II C-cars aren't made anymore, also the C-cards would be newer then the rest of the train making for a half new half/old train.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

That ridership graph is comparing apples to oranges. SkyTrain {who's numbers do include the Canada Line} is a full Metro and all the others are LRT.

When comparing SkyTrain to Montreal and Toronto, SkyTrain comes a very distant third on passengers carried per/mile. Montreal has {according to APTA 4th quarter 2014} 29.4k per mile while Toronto is 25.8 while Vancouver is way back at 9.2.

But that is what everyone is doing. They are comparing Skytrain to LRT. "Skytrain is a failure" is the usual criticism. But comparing it to LRT systems and it is a smashing success.

And keep in mind, Toronto and Montreal CMAs have populations comparable to that of all of BC and have decades worth of a head start on building ridership on their lines (as well as hundreds of years of city building/planning).

In terms of overall daily boardings we are 10th highest in North American rapid transit ridership, yet the 23 or 35th most populated city (if you go by Metropolitan or urban agglomerations).

Skytrain is making our city hit well above its weight class in terms of ridership. After Evergreen and if we built the Millennium line to Arbutus, we would probably give San Francisco's BART a run for it's money (and that is a region of 7.5-8.5 million people).

[Bdawe]

Arguably we already do give BART a run for it's money. Some years Skytrain annual ridership has exceeded BART ridership (though not weekday ridership, which can be chalked up to our much superior off-peak service). The skytrain moves nearly as many people on 40% as much track with less than half as many cars.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

I wonder after people get used to the new Mark III trains if they will make the Mark II trains into 4-car sets by taking off the ends of cars 202-203, 206-207, etc and make then C-cars so people can walk through the entire train.

the MkII design isn't being made anymore.

We'll be using MkIII in 4-car "married set" trains.

Perhaps the next order will be MkIII in 5-car sets (that can still fit the 80M platforms)

[Express691]

http://www.news1130.com/2015/12/10/translink-considers-getting-rid-of-three-zone-fare-system/

Translink considers elimination of 3 zone fare system.

[MIPS]

Today in History
December 11, 1985

Day one: SkyTrain enters service.


Photographer Unknown

Image courtesy of The Province


Screengrabs Courtesy of GEM/Yaletown Productions

Courtesy of VRRT Quarterly No. 8 (click here for a PDF copy)

After its announcement in November, the name SkyTrain stuck. Everywhere.
Dedicated signage is now up. All stations are now open and the time capsule is now safely stored away beneath New Westminster Station. It will not be opened again until 2085.
For the next eight days spread over December, rides between noon and 9:30 PM are free.


Image courtesy of....someone at the TRAMS Society? (???)

Image courtesy of BC Transit
The system will continue to run trouble-free and in January 1986 will enter full revenue service. In the meantime until March all existing bus routes will gradually migrate the new stations into their routes.


Click the brochure above for a PDF copy of the SkyTrain Flight Plan.

BC Transit however is not done yet. This was only the first phase. They have more ideas on the drafting table and already being put on the ground.
Surrey...Lougheed....Coquitlam....This is SkyTrain. This is our Track to the Future.


Image courtesy of MIPS

Photographer Unknown

[Kisai]

http://www.news1130.com/2015/12/11/skytrain-marks-30-years-of-service-what-does-the-future-hold/

Yet another article attacking the technology.

...
Long-time Regional Planner Ken Cameron for three decades and was on the GVRD Board back in the 1980s when SkyTrain was conceived.

“It certainly was a monumental decision but it was a decision that was not made as a result for a sober search for the best possible option. It was decision made at a political level, more or less, sold to the region.”

At the time, Ontario-owned the company that manufactured the SkyTrain and Cameron adds there was pressure at the time to go with the technology used today.

“The chairman of our board at the time was asked to visit the test track and I was told to go along with him to make sure he didn’t sign anything, so there was a lot of tension around the decision. The SkyTrain technology that was chosen was not really designed for a regional transit system, it was essentially a people mover.”

“Rapid transit is the holy grail of transit in many people’s minds and getting the agreement to build the Expo Line was a very important milestone.”
...

No. It's not a "people mover", it was originally marketed as something better than light rail, but not a subway. Bombardier's CURRENT Innovia marketing has it in the capacity of 8000-44800 pphpd, same as the Monorail and APM. These are just different drive technologies, with the Innovia Metro 300 (which is what the Skytrain rolling stock is) can be built with LIM and the smaller loading gauge that is used in Vancouver, or can be built with rotary motors and a larger loading gauge. For all intents it's just a driverless up-to-6-car subway train focusing on frequency. Alstom makes something essentially identical to the Innovia Metro 300 that goes up to 77,000 pphpd.

Meanwhile BRT and LRT can hit 35,000 under very specific conditions which makes running them more expensive than the Skytrain. Otherwise they top out at 14,000 pphpd when run like Portland. Street-car mode maxes out at 8000-9000.

And of course everyone seems to ignore how the driverless technology pioneered by the Vancouver Skytrain (remember TTC didn't run theirs driverless) is what allows it to have the frequency it has, that simply is not possible with drivers.

[Reecemartin]

This may edge a bit towards fantasies but I do find it fascinating to envision what our rgions transit may look like in the future. With the eh new federal government progress could be swift, and perhaps eventually Translink can be put back on track. Imagine if our transit began to see growth like in Denver for example, it would be incredible how our region would change.

What do you see the regions transport looking like in 10-15 years? Be realistic..Surrey Lrt, Broadway Subway?

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

What do you see the regions transport looking like in 10-15 years? Be realistic..Surrey Lrt, Broadway Subway?

I see the Millennium - Broadway extension to Arbutus and Expo to Langley complete. I think the L-line would either be complete or under construction. Also I think the Burnaby Gondola would be complete or under construction. Extra sea-bus would be in service too.

Next would see COV pushing for the Olympic Streetcar reintroduction with expanded service and pushing the extension of the Millennium Line through to UBC.

North shore citizens and mayors will be so fed up at the 15 year mark that they'll have a feasibility study into rapid transit solutions for their increasing problems. Likely they would look at both ALRT and LRT. Most of the route would go along the existing rail lines from Ambleside to Phibbs Exchange, perhaps as far as Capilano University.

The biggest hurdle is funding. the 33%-33%-33% strategy makes securing local funding very difficult. If Mayor Gregor Robertson got his way of a 45%-45%-10% split things would move quickly. Heck, even a 40%-40%-20% split would likely mean most items could be handled with current funding sources.

The next biggest hurdle are NIMBYs. An easy example is to look at the Gondola proposal that has a successful business case. Public engagement (although very necessary) takes time. How long did it take for the Evergreen Alignment to get settled? It makes all of these big projects decade(s) long projects.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Express691

http://www.news1130.com/2015/12/10/translink-considers-getting-rid-of-three-zone-fare-system/

Translink considers elimination of 3 zone fare system.

which will be replaced with a distance-traveled fare.
once the new compass cards can figure the tap-out on buses.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Today in History
December 11, 1985

Day one: SkyTrain enters service.

>snipped<

After its announcement in November, the name SkyTrain stuck. Everywhere.
Dedicated signage is now up. All stations are now open and the time capsule is now safely stored away beneath New Westminster Station. It will not be opened again until 2085.
For the next eight days spread over December, rides between noon and 9:30 PM are free.

>snipped<

The system will continue to run trouble-free and in January 1986 will enter full revenue service. In the meantime until March all existing bus routes will gradually migrate the new stations into their routes.

>snipped<

BC Transit however is not done yet. This was only the first phase. They have more ideas on the drafting table and already being put on the ground.
Surrey...Lougheed....Coquitlam....This is SkyTrain. This is our Track to the Future.

>snipped<

Global had an item last night using clips from one of the old films showing the 1 mile test track operating from Main Street

1983: On Track: early SkyTrain project film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsSXdSjU1I

1984: Rapid Transit Rapid Transition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKz73zLxb30

1985: Going to Town
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kGEdcYTPs

(no laughing at the fashion sense back then)

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

which will be replaced with a distance-traveled fare.
once the new compass cards can figure the tap-out on buses.

No buses will be flat rate. Maybe minus $2 if you just got off a skytrain.

[Express691]

https://t.co/jEueTgevSt

3 more (5 total) videos, one showing proposals for a now Canada-line extension to S. Delta and a proposal to cut the current 160 route to a superferry route.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Express691

https://t.co/jEueTgevSt

3 more (5 total) videos, one showing proposals for a now Canada-line extension to S. Delta and a proposal to cut the current 160 route to a superferry route.

Back in the 1980's there were teething problems. Notice "Human error" is repeated.

I don't think we will see a rapid transit line to Delta or South Surrey any time in the near future because the Urban Design fans have hijacked the transit discussion south of the Fraser.

[Reecemartin]

Interesting note, I think someone mentioned that the skytrain can be expanded to a maximum of 6 car trains, and I know that the Expo line can be expanded up to 25000 pphd, how does Bombardier provide up to 53,000 maximum pphd for the innovia 300? If the limit for the system is 6 car trains I'm quite confused

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Interesting note, I think someone mentioned that the skytrain can be expanded to a maximum of 6 car trains, and I know that the Expo line can be expanded up to 25000 pphd, how does Bombardier provide up to 53,000 maximum pphd for the innovia 300? If the limit for the system is 6 car trains I'm quite confused

The car limit is simply platform length issue, isn't it?

As such, if you build with longer platforms, you can move more people

[xd_1771]

^ That's because it's possible to configure the Innovia cars with wider loading gauges just like those used on the Canada Line. If you've ever been on the JFK AirTrain system you might notice that the trains are wider. Since this is being marketed largely as a turnkey solution (ergo new systems) it makes sense to have new installations built at 3.2m width from the start, so you get that kind of capacity with 6-car trains (that's probably also measured in terms of 6 standees per metre squared, I believe we measure with 4).

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

The car limit is simply platform length issue, isn't it?

As such, if you build with longer platforms, you can move more people

There's a lot to be said for maximum frequency as well.