Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by esquire

TFC has over the course of its existence not really been a great attendance draw especially in relation to the hype machine behind it, it hasn't made much if any money and TV ratings are negligible. But if franchise valuation is the number that you want to hang your hat on, then be my guest

Once again you ignore the facts and keep harping on your dillusional talking points. MLSE has stated numerous times that TFC is profitable minus short term stadium construction/expansion costs. $50mil in revenue for an 8 year old team is nothing to scoff at, especially considering their upward trajectory.

$175mil is just official valuation, fair market value is probably significantly higher given the fact MLSE would never sell TFC for less than $200mil, arguably they wouldn't even sell them for less than $300-400mil. The Argos? lol...taking them on was the cost to bring a few Grey Cups chump change...noone wants them.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by esquire

TFC has over the course of its existence not really been a great attendance draw especially in relation to the hype machine behind it, it hasn't made much if any money and TV ratings are negligible. But if franchise valuation is the number that you want to hang your hat on, then be my guest

The thing about TFC, is that their revenue is not solely dependent on Canadian Revenue/Viewership/ or Attendance. It's all about the TV contracts, and I'm pretty sure the next one will be in the billion dollar range. As this increases the operating loss of 7 million will turn around pretty quickly.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

The thing about TFC, is that their revenue is not solely dependent on Canadian Revenue/Viewership/ or Attendance. It's all about the TV contracts, and I'm pretty sure the next one will be in the billion dollar range. As this increases the operating loss of 7 million will turn around pretty quickly.

I'd say you nailed it. TFC's valuation is not because of the Toronto market, it's because it's tied to a US league. Buying TFC is basically a bet by MLSE that MLS will take off in the US.

Eventually once MLS starts to draw higher than infomercial-like ratings in the US, teams will probably do quite well financially, TFC included.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I'll never understand the hostility between domestic teams in Toronto.

There is no hostility between Toronto teams, leafs, raptors, tfc, jays, we all support each other. The ugly bitter duckling in the room are the argos talking smack about the other teams (and insulting the city itself) in their dank corner cursing what could have been...

[elly63]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

It's all about the TV contracts, and I'm pretty sure the next one will be in the billion dollar range.

That is hilarious considering MLS gets ratings less than the Rotisserie chicken channel and the CFL often outdraws it on ESPN 2 despite the CFL getting no promotion and MLS getting plenty. On a per team basis, the CFL TV contract and the MLS domestic contract are almost the same.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

There is no hostility between Toronto teams, leafs, raptors, tfc, jays, we all support each other. The ugly bitter duckling in the room are the argos talking smack about the other teams in their dank corner cursing what could have been...

You are funny and usually delusional to boot.

[elly63]

MLS in Canada will get real interesting if the rumoured Bell/CFL division 2 league comes about. If they get a TSN TV contract off the ground and the CSA makes no headway getting Canadian players declared as domestics in MLS, who knows what Mtl and Van will do.

I hear all the excuses from the TFC people that nobody watches TV (use alternative platforms) etc but where do they expect all this TV money to come from if nobody watches the product and they don't in Canada or the US.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

MLS in Canada will get real interesting if the rumoured Bell/CFL division 2 league comes about. If they get a TSN TV contract off the ground and the CSA makes no headway getting Canadian players declared as domestics in MLS, who knows what Mtl and Van will do.

I hear all the excuses from the TFC people that nobody watches TV (use alternative platforms) etc but where do they expect all this TV money to come from if nobody watches the product and they don't in Canada or the US.

For a guy who claims to have followed Canadian soccer for decades you are demonstrating astonishingly poor judgement of the soccer landscape. A national soccer league will not dwindle support for MLS in Vancouver or Montreal. It will enhance it by adding to the ecosystem. Montreal has Didier-frigging-Drogba and TFC has the Azzuri's Giovinco (recently declared among the top 100 players in the world by a top European soccer magazine) and the captain of the US national team. And this is just the beginning...MLS will remain the top flight for club soccer on this continent. There is room for many levels on the pyramid and for a cross-national league with high Canadian content but that doesn't take away the value and prospects for MLS.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

For a guy who claims to have followed Canadian soccer for decades you are demonstrating astonishingly poor judgement of the soccer landscape. A national soccer league will not dwindle support for MLS in Vancouver or Montreal. It will enhance it by adding to the ecosystem. Montreal has Didier-frigging-Drogba and TFC has the Azzuri's Giovinco (recently declared among the top 100 players in the world by a top European soccer magazine) and the captain of the US national team. And this is just the beginning...MLS will remain the top flight for club soccer on this continent. There is room for many levels on the pyramid and for a cross-national league with high Canadian content but that doesn't take away the value and prospects for MLS.

I never said it would dwindle support for Van or Mtl and I never mentioned TO leaving because I don't think they would join a Canadian league but if TSN offered a CFL sized contract and that is what they are already getting, it might make them think.

Those are big names in the soccer community (as small as it is) but they really mean nothing to Joe average Canadian. Walk down most streets in Canada and ask who Jermain Defoe and Michael Bradley are and you'd get blank stares.

What goes on in Toronto doesn't necessarily translate to the ROC.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

For a guy who claims to have followed Canadian soccer for decades

I should make it clear that it is the NT I have supported not MLS. I have nothing against MLS, in fact I find them in a similar boat to the CFL, so I hope they do succeed.

I like Van and Mtl but like a lot of people I get a kick out of giving the business to some (not all) TFC fans because they can be such whining, johnny come lately, entitled, asshats (with absolutely no justification for being that way). Some of them also want to see the Argos dead in the mistaken belief that will raise soccer's profile. If a CFL fan said they wanted TFC or MLS dead for that reason I'd think they were an asshat too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

There is no hostility between Toronto teams, leafs, raptors, tfc, jays, we all support each other. The ugly bitter duckling in the room are the argos talking smack about the other teams (and insulting the city itself) in their dank corner cursing what could have been...

I don't believe this is true.

Both the TFC and Raptors fan bases can frequently hate on the Leafs a whole lot and deride hockey as an old white guys', redneckish passé sport. That's where most of the venom comes from in the Toronto sports scene.

There is little back and forth hate between the Jays-Leafs as there is more cross-pollination between their fan bases.

As for the Argos fans they are too brow-beaten to truly hate on anyone or be cocky. I don't think they even know what cocky means. (And I am not being complimentary here.)

[esquire]

^ I have never encountered a CFL fan who wished that TFC/MLS were dead, but a quick visit to RPB will confirm that there are many MLS fans who wish the opposite was true.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for the Argos fans they are too brow-beaten to truly hate on anyone or be cocky. I don't think they even know what cocky means. (And I am not being complimentary here.)

I'm not an Argos fan (other than generally liking some of their players) so far be it from me to tell them what to do, but sometimes I think they are a little too timid for their own good. They have 16 Grey Cups, 5 in the last 25 years. They've had a lot of success. They deserve to carry themselves with a little swagger. I think the last time the Argo fanbase had any of that was before Doug Flutie left town.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't believe this is true.

Both the TFC and Raptors fan bases can frequently hate on the Leafs a whole lot and deride hockey as an old white guys', redneckish passé sport. That's where most of the venom comes from in the Toronto sports scene.

There is little back and forth hate between the Jays-Leafs as there is more cross-pollination between their fan bases.

As for the Argos fans they are too brow-beaten to truly hate on anyone or be cocky. I don't think they even know what cocky means. (And I am not being complimentary here.)

Really? I've literally never experienced this. I see plenty of Jays hats at TFC games [Jays hats with TFC scarves] and they seem to attract similar demographics (Jays have more female fans though proportionately). The Leafs do have a 'whiter' more rural demographic than Raptors or other local team fanbases (not including the Argos fanbase here since they're pretty invisible on a social level in the Toronto area). Being demographically different on average doesn't mean there's any hate...literally never heard a Raptors fan hate on a Leafs fan or vice versa. Lots of Leafs fans jump on the Raptors bandwagon when times are good and vice versa. I'd be curious to see examples online, it's easy to find animosity between Argos/CFL fans and other fanbases. I'm no hockey/baseball/basketball fan but I would totally jump on the bandwagon if our local teams made deep runs. I even watched the 2012 Grey Cup on TV that the Argos won, but I can honestly say most of the goodwill for the Argos is gone.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not an Argos fan (other than generally liking some of their players) so far be it from me to tell them what to do, but sometimes I think they are a little too timid for their own good. They have 16 Grey Cups, 5 in the last 25 years. They've had a lot of success. They deserve to carry themselves with a little swagger. I think the last time the Argo fanbase had any of that was before Doug Flutie left town.

And that is what Copeland and Moore will try to do, bring a little swagger back to the Argos.

I think you will see some big changes for the Argos, I'm not going to predict sellouts or anything but the young people were brought back in Hamilton and Ottawa and the same can happen in TO. It's not like they need to convert 5 million people in the GTA, just 25k.

Will they be Toronto's team again like in the 70s, no, but I think they can find a niche audience like TFC and do well again and the new regime seems to be doing the right things so far and is off to a good start.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Fact is outside of BMO field on game days theirs not alot of TFC fans in Tornoto.

Mainly foreigners that move to North America are MLS fans... who else would watch that boring shit!?

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by esquire

What government support did the Roughriders get exactly?

Believe me, I hate the Roughriders too, but unlike Toronto FC they are actually paying for the lion's share of their stadium.Unlike a certain welfare case soccer team in Toronto

Well - since you asked .......

The $278-million stadium was announced in July of 2012 and will be built on the city's exhibition grounds, known as Evraz Place.

Money for the 33,000-seat facility will come from:

$80 million grant from the province of Saskatchewan.
$73 million from the city of Regina.
$25 million generated by such things as naming rights, to be coordinated by the Saskatchewan Roughriders Football Club.
$100 million loan, from the province, to be paid down over 30 years through a $12 per ticket facility fee tacked onto each football game or any other event at the new stadium.

Conversely BMO's construction cost was $62.9 million - with the land being given to them by the city at a value of $10 million for a total project cost of $72.8 million

$27 million from the Feds
$8 million from the Province
$19.8 million from the city (of which the land was $10 million)
The remaining $18 million ($8 million + $10 million naming rights) came from MLSE. They sold those naming rights to BMO for $27 million

So using those figures MLSE contributed 24.7% towards the cost of the stadium compared to the 8.9% the Riders are kicking into Mosaic.


And that's not even mentioning the additional $90 million MLSE have kicked in for the expansion over the last 18 months or the $5 million they spent putting in grass and giving the old turf back to the city to be used at Lamport Stadium.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

(Jays have more female fans though proportionately).it's easy to find animosity between Argos/CFL fans and other fanbases. I'm no hockey/baseball/basketball fan but I would totally jump on the bandwagon if our local teams made deep runs. I even watched the 2012 Grey Cup on TV that the Argos won, but I can honestly say most of the goodwill for the Argos is gone.

Disagree about the Argos with animosity, why would they be cocky, they've had nothing to brag about the last few years. I think you're saying that because you are a TFC fan, and sure there are a few CFL fans that can be idiots towards MLS, just as I said some (not all) TFC fans are idiots. But there seems to be much more animosity directed by TFC fans and almost none from Van or Mtl and that is probably 95% due to the sharing of BMO.

I have seen soccer fans with even more animosity towards baseball than CFL. Calling the players fat, out of shape no skill etc, just jealousy that baseball has such a large profile.

There are many cross over fans of the CFL and MLS teams. At the Vees, members there generally won't put up with CFL slurs from MLS fans because there are so many fans of both there.

Yeah and what's the deal with the young women at Jays games, and how do we tap into that (the demo not the girls)

As for the goodwill towards the Argos being gone, I'd agree their outward profile has gone to hell but the goodwill is still there. Isn't Pinball Clemons the unofficial mayor of TO? You'll see a big change this year if Bell truly gives this a try and it's looking like they will.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

So using those figures MLSE contributed 24.7% towards the cost of the stadium compared to the 8.9% the Riders are kicking into Mosaic.

You do realize that the $100 million loan you mentioned will be repaid by the Roughriders who will collect a ticket surcharge for their games and events they promote?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Mainly foreigners that move to North America are MLS fans... who else would watch that boring shit!?

Not foreigners, they watch their own shit.