Winnipeg Construction VIII

[Cyro]

Yes, the semi-annual PP discussion. Great discussion, seriously.

Can anyone hazard a guess on why PP was contructed with Grade Level CRU's with doors facing street level( with interior acess), and now they've all been blocked off to pedestrian traffic effectively creating several blocks of dead street level interaction? More has happened to PP and the area than expansion to the suburbs.

The Perception of Downtown and the area has changed.


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2014/03/17/three-charged-following-portage-place-mugging

The article is here for the images source and exterior CRU reference, but there is some truth to the problems that face future development in the area from the article.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Can anyone hazard a guess on why PP was contructed with Grade Level CRU's with doors facing street level( with interior acess), and now they've all been blocked off to pedestrian traffic effectively creating several blocks of dead street level interaction?

Security. Hard to watch two doors at either end of a store.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Yes, the semi-annual PP discussion. Great discussion, seriously.

Can anyone hazard a guess on why PP was contructed with Grade Level CRU's with doors facing street level( with interior acess), and now they've all been blocked off to pedestrian traffic effectively creating several blocks of dead street level interaction? More has happened to PP and the area than expansion to the suburbs.

The Perception of Downtown and the area has changed.


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2014/03/17/three-charged-following-portage-place-mugging

The article is here for the images source and exterior CRU reference, but there is some truth to the problems that face future development in the area from the article.

It was a poor design off the get go. Stores need a stock area, when you have entrances on either end, that causes logistical issues. Also security issues.

When you think about it they build these skywalks connecting the major retailers downtown so you don't have to go outside, then build street level access to the stores of the mall.

Personally feel that the skywalk system is a determent to downtown. There'd be so much more street level activity absent it.

[esquire]

^ I still maintain Portage Place was built too far from the critical hub of people downtown... Portage and Main. Had it been built between Eaton's and P&M, I think it might have been more successful drawing the noon hour office worker shoppers that tend to fill up Edmonton and Calgary's downtown malls, which are directly underneath many of the major office complexes there. As it stands, the only big office tower that's a short distance from Portage Place is Hydro. I guess Newport Centre and One Canada Centre are nearby too, but they aren't as big. Still far less foot traffic than what there is by Portage & Main.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Cyro

More has happened to PP and the area than expansion to the suburbs....

The Perception of Downtown and the area has changed.

Originally Posted by Riverman

Security. Hard to watch two doors at either end of a store.

Opened to street level for years. But yes, Security, for the employees and the patrons. Loss prevention, dealers, gangs, etc.. come to mind as current problems.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Riverman

The crushing poverty which is the worst in Canada and getting worse every year. Related unemployment statistics the government trumpets are not applicable here as they apply only to those actively looking for work and reporting this to EI. It does not apply to those on welfare, those on the street, students or those who are not looking for work. If those were included the picture would not be so rosy.

Outcomes on health, education, children in care are the worst in the country. Among many other outcomes.

We also have among the lowest wages in the country and one of the least business friendly environments. The highest taxes on the poor.

Some succeed despite this and choose to stay here, but more and more are choosing to move away.

This is why Winnipeg is not thriving. In my opinion, anyway.

Not to interrupt your political diatribe, but unemployment rates everywhere are calculated on the basis of people actually looking for work. So relatively speaking, the provinces unemployment rate, as is Saskatchewan's, is lower than most provinces.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by cheswick

It was a poor design off the get go. Stores need a stock area, when you have entrances on either end, that causes logistical issues. Also security issues.

When you think about it they build these skywalks connecting the major retailers downtown so you don't have to go outside, then build street level access to the stores of the mall.

Personally feel that the skywalk system is a determent to downtown. There'd be so much more street level activity absent it.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I still maintain Portage Place was built too far from the critical hub of people downtown... Portage and Main. Had it been built between Eaton's and P&M, I think it might have been more successful drawing the noon hour office worker shoppers that tend to fill up Edmonton and Calgary's downtown malls, which are directly underneath many of the major office complexes there. As it stands, the only big office tower that's a short distance from Portage Place is Hydro. I guess Newport Centre and One Canada Centre are nearby too, but they aren't as big. Still far less foot traffic than what there is by Portage & Main.

I agree with the sky walks and general design of the building, poorly conceived, although in other areas I see them as useful for our difficult climate.

The location as well, in hind sight, at the time, could have been pushed closer to PM as you've mentioned. It's difficult to come up with a solution so distant from it's original conception. It's going to remain a constant struggle in the foreseeable future..

[Ando]

As someone pointed out, it's dangerous to put on our rose-coloured glasses and rave about how everything is so fantastic in other cities, if only Winnipeg could be like Calgary or Ottawa or Montreal. In doing so, usually the fact that all those cities have their own downtown problems gets glossed over in the hand-wringing about how we are not like the other cities. Winnipeg is unique and is following its own course of development. It is not unique in the fact that it faces challenges. In Ottawa, for example, the Sparks Street Mall has long been underdeveloped despite decades of government efforts to reinvigorate it, and a really ideal layout in that is a four block pedestrian mall that is close to Parliament It should be thriving with interesting restaurants and pubs and have a lively street scene. In fact, shortly after 5 p.m., you can walk down without hardly seeing a soul - like the Monty Python parrot, it has expired, it is dead The city has stooped to organizing kitschy events like poutine fest in a desperate attempt to get it going. A little further south in Burlington, Vermont they have a fantastic pedestrian mall so it's the kind of thing that should work. But these things are never a guarantee.

[BigG]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I still maintain Portage Place was built too far from the critical hub of people downtown... Portage and Main. Had it been built between Eaton's and P&M, I think it might have been more successful drawing the noon hour office worker shoppers that tend to fill up Edmonton and Calgary's downtown malls, which are directly underneath many of the major office complexes there. As it stands, the only big office tower that's a short distance from Portage Place is Hydro. I guess Newport Centre and One Canada Centre are nearby too, but they aren't as big. Still far less foot traffic than what there is by Portage & Main.

That's actually a very valid point. Ever wonder why the businesses in Winnipeg Square have remained for more than decades for some? The place is busy during business hours - from breakfast til quitting time in the afternoon. From the tailor shop, drugstore, foodcourt and kiosks, people are using the services because it's right below their workplaces. Mind you, the place is like Portage Place after office hours.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Cyro

The location as well, in hind sight, at the time, could have been pushed closer to PM as you've mentioned. It's difficult to come up with a solution so distant from it's original conception. It's going to remain a constant struggle in the foreseeable future..

The struggle has given way to a gradual conversion of large swaths of retail space into office space. This trend will probably continue... I could see Portage Place of 10 years from now just having the food court and the main floor shops, with everything else being office space.

[DowntownBooster]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Opened to street level for years. But yes, Security, for the employees and the patrons. Loss prevention, dealers, gangs, etc.. come to mind as current problems.

Bingo. Those problems along with social issues in and around downtown are what keep a lot of people away from the area and choosing suburban malls (and Polo Park) instead. This is a big problem that Winnipeg has to deal with that many other urban centres don't have to face to quite the same degree. It helps that more people are choosing to live downtown but it will probably take a while to change the mindset of suburbanites about our downtown.

[Urban recluse]

What we need to do now is move forward. If PP's fate is to become a hub for offices and other services, while we see an increase in retail and more inviting storefronts along Portage, Graham, etc, wonderful.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I still maintain Portage Place was built too far from the critical hub of people downtown... Portage and Main. Had it been built between Eaton's and P&M, I think it might have been more successful drawing the noon hour office worker shoppers that tend to fill up Edmonton and Calgary's downtown malls, which are directly underneath many of the major office complexes there. As it stands, the only big office tower that's a short distance from Portage Place is Hydro. I guess Newport Centre and One Canada Centre are nearby too, but they aren't as big. Still far less foot traffic than what there is by Portage & Main.

The problem it was solving was the "north Portage" problem at that precise location -- vacant stores, sleazy stuff (O Calcutta being kind of a remnant of that) while the south side was still thriving with Holt Renfrew, Clifford's, the Metropolitan store, Woolworth's, Birks, Eaton's and the Bay. There was no imperative to build a mall -- that was just the idea that won out as the solution for north Portage blight. There was also the idea to re-align Portage to the north and build a covered arcade from Eaton's to the Bay. The problem was that the mall opened at the same time as the expanded Polo Park and offered very little that was unique (although Holt's and the Imax were a nice try) and before long the problems of north Portage were transferred to the south side of the street while the mall deteriorated. It also created a backwater north of the mall, with all the north-south traffic cut off, further exacerbating the decline of that area (which it also promoted by supplanting the Free Press loading dock area, forcing its move from Carlton St.).

[CoryB]

The challenge with the location of Portage Place is that stretch of Portage Ave was problematic for years before Portage Place was built. There was even a plan before Portage Place to put a domed roof over Portage Ave and if I recall correctly to have a new downtown arena for the Jets built.

The challenge with moving the development closer to Portage and Main is where would you have put it? You need three continuous blocks. For argument sake you also can't close Smith or Donald. Even if you shorten it to two blocks you then either demolish the Malbourgh hotel or the Garry St parkade and its attached building, both of which would have been very expensive to acquire. The location close to Portage and Main would also have received strong opposition from the Portage and Main property owners who were the deal closing the intersection to pedestrians and having a vested interest in keeping those people in the walkways.

It is interesting that to some extent that the problems Portage Place was trying to solve on the north side of the street ended up moving to the south side once the mall was completed.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by cheswick

It was a poor design off the get go. Stores need a stock area, when you have entrances on either end, that causes logistical issues. Also security issues.

The doors onto Portage were probably the city's requirement. No mall store ever wants those entrances, but this was the signature project of the Bill Norrie/Lloyd Axworthy era and no one wanted it to look like the Eaton Centre in Toronto -- with a sheer wall along the city's main street for block after block (the Eaton Centre eventually added the street entrances). A lot of thought went into the design of Portage Place, and the intentions were very good, with lessons learned from other malls of the same time incorporated as much as possible. But in the end it wasn't strong enough to turn Portage Place-Bay-Eaton's into a beachhead that would re-take downtown for retail. The mall slowly went downhill -- not completely but more than enough to cease to be much more than a neighbourhood destination.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by Andy6

The doors onto Portage were probably the city's requirement. No mall store ever wants those entrances, but this was the signature project of the Bill Norrie/Lloyd Axworthy era and no one wanted it to look like the Eaton Centre in Toronto -- with a sheer wall along the city's main street for block after block (the Eaton Centre eventually added the street entrances). A lot of thought went into the design of Portage Place, and the intentions were very good, with lessons learned from other malls of the same time incorporated as much as possible. But in the end it wasn't strong enough to turn Portage Place-Bay-Eaton's into a beachhead that would re-take downtown for retail. The mall slowly went downhill -- not completely but more than enough to cease to be much more than a neighbourhood destination.

All your points are bang on. And also add that Eatons going bankrupt didn't help especially when it was a boarded up hulk.
Don't forget how Eaton Place was also a large mall with theatres and many of the same stores as PP.

Had they built it now I think it would have made it as the density DT is much greater in both people living and working.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

All your points are bang on. And also add that Eatons going bankrupt didn't help especially when it was a boarded up hulk.
Don't forget how Eaton Place was also a large mall with theatres and many of the same stores as PP.

That's true. Eaton's had already tried to bring the mall experience downtown by re-developing the lower levels of the Mail Order building into Eaton Place in the late 70s. It never caught on. Portage Place was just a larger version of the same thing.

[buzzg]

It's a shame everything everyone mentions, but one saving grace is that Portage Place as said many times is actually very well designed, so maybe one day when the critical mass is there it could come back to life on Portage.

It leads me to a question though... what would people rather see a residential tower built on one of the pads at PP or one on the parking lots behind, facing Ellice?

I'd personally love to see the lots filled, as I think the Promenade also has quite a bit of potential, again, just not enough people right there yet.

[Urban recluse]

Both. I would choose a surface lot if given the choice however.

[esquire]

^ Yeah, no question I'd prefer to see development on the surface lots. The pads at PP would be ideal for hotel or office, but with it approaching 30 years old I wonder if that ship has sailed? It's hard to imagine someone putting up the money to build a new office or hotel tower on top of what is an increasingly dilapidated complex.