Winnipeg Construction VIII

[Riverman]

Those were the days. Christmas shopping in an airy, uncrowded environment with my car parked in a warm garage.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Those were the days. Christmas shopping in an airy, uncrowded environment with my car parked in a warm garage.

I used to do practically all of my Christmas shopping right up until the late 00s when a combination of an increasingly atrophied Bay and Portage Place meant I had to go elsewhere to find even relatively basic stuff.

Now that I think about it, it was the time that McNally's closed the Portage Place store before venturing on their ill-fated move to Polo Park that was really the death knell for my downtown Christmas shopping.

[Riverman]

Me too. And I did it all in one night. Now one could almost say there is no retail downtown.

Never shopped St. Vital until last night, we had time to kill waiting to see Sisters. What a terrific mall.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

No. But there's a reason 40 storey towers sell out in two weeks elsewhere. There is demand. If the demand was here in Winnipeg, we'd be getting the same.

I want Winnipeg to be just as awesome as everyone else. When reality sinks in, we need baby steps. That's my motto for the day, baby steps. Winnipeg's population is slowly increasing. People say when a city reaches the 800k-900k mark, some type of critical mass is born. Lets see what happens in Winnipeg over the next 10 years with that.

Well said, the constant comparisons to other municipalities may have some value, but Winnipeg's set of circumstances are unique, different from many other municipalities across Canada and may require a slower more patient approach to development. "Baby Steps" or even "One step at a time" resonate with my feelings as well.

[buzzg]

One of the major differences between Winnipeg and many of those other cities (and many in the US as well) is that the City of Winnipeg is pretty much Winnipeg and nothing else — when you add in the "metro" area, our population increases maybe 10k people, when lots of the others have much more sprawl/exurban areas and many more big towns/small cities very close by. Lots of those people outside those cities will drive in to do shopping, so your market is much, much larger.

I also think in terms of high-end retail (maybe we should switch threads) one major issue which comes up in lots of different discussions here is Winnipeg's fragmentation and decentralization of shops and services. I think we don't see a lot of luxury shops and money here (or don't make it obvious) because there isn't one or two obvious areas where they locate, so it's harder to take notice. Do you go Corydon Village, Corydon (River Heights), Academy, Polo Park, Osborne, East/West Exchange, Waterfront, Broadway, Provencher... etc, etc.

I think the Academy BIZ' goal should be to be come a high-end retail street, it makes the most sense to be the place in Winnipeg to go for luxury shopping.

[Pinus]

Haha, the "sky is falling" paranoia mentiality displayed on this forum by some is sad, comical and pathetic blended together. Good for a morning laugh at best

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Me too. And I did it all in one night. Now one could almost say there is no retail downtown.

Never shopped St. Vital until last night, we had time to kill waiting to see Sisters. What a terrific mall.

So which stores used to be in Portage place that made shopping there so attractive? I actually find downtown retail to offer a lot more interesting gift options than the malls. One trip to MEC can cover the runner and the cyclist on my list. Beans and a french press from Fools & Horses cover the coffee lover. Tiny Feast covers the student. Generation Green at the Forks covers the tree hugger. Mall gifts by comparison are generic predictable and boring. I've avoided the mall the last few years now and couldn't be more satisfied.

[rkspec]

i'll continue the derailment of this tread by adding that we can all shop from the luxury of our beds by logging in and shopping online!

Also, i dont know why but the statement that winnipeg is not thriving is eating me up lol. i started digging thru the net but i dont have time to compile the stats i've been seeing but i'd have to say that is a false opinion, no?

IMO, unless things changed over the last 2 years, Detroit is a prime example of a city that is not thriving.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by rkspec

i'll continue the derailment of this tread by adding that we can all shop from the luxury of our beds by logging in and shopping online!

Also, i dont know why but the statement that winnipeg is not thriving is eating me up lol. i started digging thru the net but i dont have time to compile the stats i've been seeing but i'd have to say that is a false opinion, no?

IMO, unless things changed over the last 2 years, Detroit is a prime example of a city that is not thriving.

Agreed. Anyone who says it's not on the up has probably not gone to downtown, Polo, Regent, Kenaston in the last 5 years. (Not saying that Kenaston/Regent/Polo are ideal developments though haha)

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by windypeg

So which stores used to be in Portage place that made shopping there so attractive?

Claire's, McNally, but mostly The Bay when things were sold there.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by rkspec

Also, i dont know why but the statement that winnipeg is not thriving is eating me up lol. i started digging thru the net but i dont have time to compile the stats i've been seeing but i'd have to say that is a false opinion, no?

IMO, unless things changed over the last 2 years, Detroit is a prime example of a city that is not thriving.

I'm surprised we're still so pessimistic about downtown. 10 years ago there was nothing going on aside from MTS Centre and we had gone over a decade with basically no new towers and hardly any residential. Today we've got 4 residential towers under construction, a new hotel tower on Portage and convention centre upgrades on the way. 10 years ago we would've killed for just one of those projects. The exchange is thriving and true north square on the horizon. It's not an overnight transformation but we're definitely headed in the right direction.

At the same time the suburbs are doing very well, especially in the southwest from both a retail and housing standpoint. That growth used to come at the expense of downtown, now they're all chugging along at the same time. Seems healthy to me

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by rkspec

Also, i don't know why but the statement that winnipeg is not thriving is eating me up lol. i started digging thru the net but i dont have time to compile the stats i've been seeing but i'd have to say that is a false opinion, no?

The crushing poverty which is the worst in Canada and getting worse every year. Related unemployment statistics the government trumpets are not applicable here as they apply only to those actively looking for work and reporting this to EI. It does not apply to those on welfare, those on the street, students or those who are not looking for work. If those were included the picture would not be so rosy.

Outcomes on health, education, children in care are the worst in the country. Among many other outcomes.

We also have among the lowest wages in the country and one of the least business friendly environments. The highest taxes on the poor.

Some succeed despite this and choose to stay here, but more and more are choosing to move away.

This is why Winnipeg is not thriving. In my opinion, anyway.

[Cyro]

Ok, fellas, CRU development in the downtown area is fair, ie: Portage Place etc. and it's affects on the core are relevant. General shopping information is more appropriate in the Retail Thread. lol ( Buzzg: Point noted).

Pinus: Although we're optimistic In nature, posters are free to give their opinions even though we may feel they're not positive.

The thread hasn't been derailed, it meanders, it's the nature of open discussion..
Questions ?: PM me or the Mod of your choice. Thanks..

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I also think in terms of high-end retail (maybe we should switch threads) one major issue which comes up in lots of different discussions here is Winnipeg's fragmentation and decentralization of shops and services.

A bigger issue with luxury retail in Winnipeg is it's geographic location. Vancouver appeals to the new rich in Asia and has that to help out its market. It is also a relatively easy flight from Winnipeg, especially for people with the levels of disposable income to shop at luxury retail. This means that even with Winnipeg had the ill located high end Holt's in Portage Place that a lot of its potential customers would hop a plan to Vancouver for a business or weekend trip and go to the major larger variety of stores there. This led to a long history of stocking challenges with the local Holt's which basically made the situation continue to worsen. Had Holt's moved to Polo Park when the major expansion happened this might be a whole different discussion. You could also make a strong case for how the Winnipeg failure of Holt's and the higher growth rates of luxury retail in Canada is partly what as caused growth in the local retail market, especially downtown, to be extremely slow and limited.

Edit: Portage Place was originally envisioned as the Pacific Centre of Winnipeg and hoped to bring in lots of up market retailers. Consider the other prominent up market retailer is opened with was Brinks who back then had outlets in every Winnipeg shopping mall it was hard to attract those high end buyers from day one. This ultimately lead to the pressures on Portage Place tenants causing it to repeatedly retreat on smaller CRU spaces gear to retailers. It is why the far west and east wings are no longer smaller retailers. This market mismatch has lead to the evolution into the mall we have today. It will be interesting to see what comes of the now largely vacant third floor.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I think the Academy BIZ' goal should be to be come a high-end retail street, it makes the most sense to be the place in Winnipeg to go for luxury shopping.

Will never happen. Look at how the denizens of North River Heights went ballistic because one doctor wanted to put up a single storey clinic... they will storm City Hall if someone sets out to build CRUs to accommodate luxury retail. Which would have to be done since there are probably no more than a half dozen existing CRUs that a luxury retailer would even look at, and even then probably no actual chain would look at it, just independents.

If there is ever going to be a luxury shopping district in Winnipeg, it will be in one of two places and two places only: downtown (in the vein of, say, Michigan Avenue), or at Polo Park (along the lines of the Houston Galleria).

[Biff]

Originally Posted by esquire

If there is ever going to be a luxury shopping district in Winnipeg, it will be in one of two places and two places only: downtown (in the vein of, say, Michigan Avenue), or at Polo Park (along the lines of the Houston Galleria).

I was just in Houston and Dallas over the weekend. Anyone who thinks Winnipeg is over saturated with retail has never been to a large, spread out metropolis south of the boarder. It boggles the mind how much retail there is in the large cities in the US.

.......sorry Esquire, not really relating to your post, but your mention of the Houston Galleria prompted my comment.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

So Winnipeg must accept a fate of inertia?

Some of us prefer the pace that Winnipeg has.

A slower paced economy allows for small family run businesses to thrive with less upfront risk. It keeps the price of houses/condos and rents lower and slows sprawling suburban development.

I don't need a Holt Renfrew, nor do a I need a city filled with people who would shop at one.

I lived in Calgary for nearly 9 years to recognize the ugly side of booming cities.

[blueandgoldguy]

From my viewpoint, downtown Winnipeg has taken one step forward and one step back. On one hand, we have seen a steady increase in the number of people living downtown since the 90s and that will continue in the near future with the apartment and condo building on Assiniboia, Glasshouse and the smaller developments in the Exchange. Who knows maybe the long shot that is Sky City will come to fruition. Possibly even the Forks residential proposal. I have also observed a steady increase in the number of restaurants downtown, most notably in the Exchange and the Arena District.

However, retail has taken a giant leap backwards the past few decades. As mentioned above, several retailers have left Portage Place (one not mentioned is Club Monaco) along with the closing of the Globe and IMAX, some retail outlets on Graham have disappeared, Eaton's closed and the Bay downsized from 6 floors to two.

I remember doing a fair share of shopping at the Downtown Bay store on a semi-frequent basis. Once upon on time during the 90s, they actually had a decent selection of men's clothing and I would usually attend the store on a monthly basis on scratch n' save Fridays. In the present, I can't remember the last time I have gone to The Bay to make a purchase. The selection there is underwhelming to say the least.

[esquire]

^ Portage Place used to have Sports Experts, Club Monaco, McNally Robinson, Smithbooks, several various men's and women's specialty clothing stores, Holt Renfrew followed by Holt Renfrew Last Call where I was able to find some amazing deals... in other words, it was a legitimate mall, bookended by two huge department stores.

I guess it was a long time ago, you'd probably have to be over 30 to really remember when The Bay/Eaton's/Portage Place were at the heart a still somewhat-thriving downtown retail sector. Seems that things really began to drop off in the mid-90s once the Eaton's chain began faltering and they began closing floors. Comparing 1992 to 2012 in downtown retail is like looking at two totally different worlds...

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Portage Place used to have Sports Experts, Club Monaco, McNally Robinson, Smithbooks, several various men's and women's specialty clothing stores, Holt Renfrew followed by Holt Renfrew Last Call where I was able to find some amazing deals... in other words, it was a legitimate mall, bookended by two huge department stores.

I guess it was a long time ago, you'd probably have to be over 30 to really remember when The Bay/Eaton's/Portage Place were at the heart a still somewhat-thriving downtown retail sector. Seems that things really began to drop off in the mid-90s once the Eaton's chain began faltering and they began closing floors. Comparing 1992 to 2012 in downtown retail is like looking at two totally different worlds...

I have vague memories when Portage Place while it was under construction (mostly to do with the IMAX, because that seemed pretty cool to my younger self). I still vividly remember going to Portage Place quite often when it first opened. I remember it being "the place to go", what with the cool fountain, the shops on the skywalks, cool clock, etc. etc. I would have been about 9 or 10 when it opened.