Halifax Stadium Discussion

[gm_scott]

[QUOTE=ILoveHalifax;7234789]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

This is a reasonable summary.

Keep in mind the Phase One report said that HRM should build a 10,000 seat stadium that could be expanded to 20,000 as needed, but built to a recreation/community standard. http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110802ca3iicow.pdf



.....build a 20K+ seat stadium, well.... Council has been clear on what it wants.

Thank you for your comments but that is the key phrase "WHAT COUNCIL WANTS".

Council seems to think they are building what they want and not what the public wants. I was not party to the meeting where council came up with its 14,000 play field but....

I was to other follow up meetings and the people, the citizens, the tax payers, the citizens of Halifax want a 20,000 plus stadium with the possibility of a CFL team.

So council can bury their heads and ignore the public, seems the only way for Halifax to get a stadium is to get rid of everybody on council.

I know plenty of people against a stadium, so your argument ends there. We elect a council to make decisions for the city and part of the decision making process is prioritizing what the city really needs. I am happy they aren't spending money on a stadium.

[ILoveHalifax]

[QUOTE=gm_scott;7234810]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I know plenty of people against a stadium, so your argument ends there. We elect a council to make decisions for the city and part of the decision making process is prioritizing what the city really needs. I am happy they aren't spending money on a stadium.

Yeah, I know plenty of people with different points of view but did you attend any of the meetings on a stadium?
They were very well attended and the desire was very largely in support of a stadium.

[FFX-ME]

Why even build a stadium with under 20k seats anyway. It would be useless.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

So council can bury their heads and ignore the public, seems the only way for Halifax to get a stadium is to get rid of everybody on council.

Read the reports - there was extensive public consultation and there was a lot of financial modelling. Council wants what was recommended by the arms length citizens committee that recommended, twice, to do 10-14K. I don't have a lot of residents calling me saying "build a CFL stadium with taxpayers money."

[Colin May]

[QUOTE=ILoveHalifax;7234789]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

This is a reasonable summary.

Keep in mind the Phase One report said that HRM should build a 10,000 seat stadium that could be expanded to 20,000 as needed, but built to a recreation/community standard. http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110802ca3iicow.pdf



.....build a 20K+ seat stadium, well.... Council has been clear on what it wants.

Thank you for your comments but that is the key phrase "WHAT COUNCIL WANTS".

Council seems to think they are building what they want and not what the public wants. I was not party to the meeting where council came up with its 14,000 play field but....

I was to other follow up meetings and the people, the citizens, the tax payers, the citizens of Halifax want a 20,000 plus stadium with the possibility of a CFL team.

So council can bury their heads and ignore the public, seems the only way for Halifax to get a stadium is to get rid of everybody on council.

Waye has described the list of projects that the council deems is in the best interest of the population.
Where would you place the stadium amongst that list ?
Booting the whole council would not significantly alter the facts or the list.
Feel free to offer yourself in the October 2016 election, and find others who agree with you and are willing to hit the streets seeking vote. I'll make a donation when you announce your candidacy; not because I agree with you but I do like to encourage people to step forward.

[gm_scott]

[QUOTE=ILoveHalifax;7234869]

Originally Posted by gm_scott

Yeah, I know plenty of people with different points of view but did you attend any of the meetings on a stadium?
They were very well attended and the desire was very largely in support of a stadium.

Interesting, so at public meetings for a stadium, there are a lot of pro stadium people. What a surprise. So no, I didn't go. Do you really think all the people that don't care, or are against it but not strongly against the idea would attend? I just can't understand the thought process behind the support for something like this. Investments in transit, a new police station, these are things Halifax actually needs. What is a stadium going to do? Maybe have 20 CFL games a year plus a few concerts? I rather the city invest in something that will benefit all citizens for the better part of the year. Why should the city sink a bunch of money into an events venue that still charges people a significant admission fee. If you aren't into CFL, or whatever act is in town, why would you go? Frankly I don't care if Halifax ever has a stadium. Half the reason I think people want it is just because other cities have them. You could make the typical "It would be great for civic pride" argument. Well, I would personally have more pride in a city that prioritizes projects based on needs versus wants.

[TheNovaScotian]

Council has proved again, it's inability to think big and take the small risk on something that has been studied and haunting us for decades.

Honestly Waye, I appreciate your comments on here through out the years, hell it's why I voted for you. That will not be happening next time. Your efforts have been contrary to growing Halifax into a larger regional center and I will be advising anyone who asks, to not vote for you.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by gm_scott

Interesting, so at public meetings for a stadium, there are a lot of pro stadium people. What a surprise. So no, I didn't go. Do you really think all the people that don't care, or are against it but not strongly against the idea would attend? I just can't understand the thought process behind the support for something like this. Investments in transit, a new police station, these are things Halifax actually needs. What is a stadium going to do? Maybe have 20 CFL games a year plus a few concerts? I rather the city invest in something that will benefit all citizens for the better part of the year. Why should the city sink a bunch of money into an events venue that still charges people a significant admission fee. If you aren't into CFL, or whatever act is in town, why would you go? Frankly I don't care if Halifax ever has a stadium. Half the reason I think people want it is just because other cities have them. You could make the typical "It would be great for civic pride" argument. Well, I would personally have more pride in a city that prioritizes projects based on needs versus wants.

Well that's how I feel about it, although I've shied about from actively opposing it because I don't trust my impartiality. A stadium isn't something that I'd personally use or benefit from and it's hard for me to gauge how many other people would, or if the situation were reversed, if I'd justify myself into supporting something equally frivolous that I happened to be personally into. But I'm very skeptical of the business case for taxpayer funded stadia. If it was publicly funded, would it charge any sports team playing there based on market rate rents? If it did, how do we know the team would stick around and pay? What would the ownership structure be? Would the private sport owners profit off it more than the public? Would we be forced to slash the rents and basically subsidize the team to avoid losing the whole investment? Would we even be guaranteed a CFL team if we built it?

It makes why wonder why, if there's really demand for a CFL team or other large events, why wouldn't the private sector just take on the risk and build the facility itself? For it to need to be done publicly means a subsidy must be required, and if so, we need really clear, reliable, and well documented guarantees of the public benefits.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Read the reports - there was extensive public consultation and there was a lot of financial modelling. Council wants what was recommended by the arms length citizens committee that recommended, twice, to do 10-14K. I don't have a lot of residents calling me saying "build a CFL stadium with taxpayers money."

Waye, were you not part of the arms length citizen committee who came up with the 10,000 to 14,000 model ???

I attended the meeting at the forum and there was over all support for a CFL stadium there. Any suggestion otherwise would indicate that the people who conducted the program acted against the mood of the room in an effort to comply with the previous 10 - 14 K report.

Believe me, I would never call you as my councillor as I only see you as in support of the status quo.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Council has proved again, it's inability to think big and take the small risk on something that has been studied and haunting us for decades.

Honestly Waye, I appreciate your comments on here through out the years, hell it's why I voted for you. That will not be happening next time. Your efforts have been contrary to growing Halifax into a larger regional center and I will be advising anyone who asks, to not vote for you.

I cannot understand this perspective. Building a stadium is not "thinking big" when there is no business case for it, no major-league team to use it (and no likelihood of one), and no local events in need of a venue of such capacity. A stadium will not "grow" the city; a stadium is the fault of growth, not the cause of it. A lot of people seem to have this cause and effect flipped.

There are lots of things we can do to think bigger as a city; building an under-used, un-needed and expensive stadium is not a reasonable expenditure.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I cannot understand this perspective. Building a stadium is not "thinking big" when there is no business case for it, no major-league team to use it (and no likelihood of one), and no local events in need of a venue of such capacity. A stadium will not "grow" the city; a stadium is the fault of growth, not the cause of it. A lot of people seem to have this cause and effect flipped.

There are lots of things we can do to think bigger as a city; building an under-used, un-needed and expensive stadium is not a reasonable expenditure.

Wasn't the Council asked to vote on a motion just to purchase land for a future stadium at Shannon Park? Then land could be set aside and residents of new developments in Shannon Park would know that a stadium may be built in their neighbourhood. Once land is purchased then fund raising could be started from various sources including private sources; if all funds were required to come from the municipality then the stadium would simply not be built.

Why do you think there is no likelihood of getting a CFL team? That doesn't seem to be in agreement with the opinion of the past 2 CFL commissioners who want a team in Halifax.

Basically, what the Council decided was not to pursue a stadium of any size.

[OldDartmouthMark]

One has only to look at the history of support (or lack thereof) for major sports teams in Halifax to realize that a large stadium will mostly be sitting unused. This is not something that I want my tax dollars spent on.

There are so many other projects that would be of benefit to the city that probably won't be done because of lack of funds available, that I couldn't give support to this.

If the private sector wants to fund it then the city should try to accommodate it, otherwise let's put it to rest for now.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Wasn't the Council asked to vote on a motion just to purchase land for a future stadium at Shannon Park? Then land could be set aside and residents of new developments in Shannon Park would know that a stadium may be built in their neighbourhood. Once land is purchased then fund raising could be started from various sources including private sources; if all funds were required to come from the municipality then the stadium would simply not be built.

Why do you think there is no likelihood of getting a CFL team? That doesn't seem to be in agreement with the opinion of the past 2 CFL commissioners who want a team in Halifax.

Basically, what the Council decided was not to pursue a stadium of any size.

It's possible, but I doubt it will happen soon. Regardless, cities don't build stadiums on spec. Private fundraising would never raise all the money because the business community is unlikely to invest in such a big question mark. (And I'm fairly certain that no stadium in North America has ever been solely financed by the private sector.)

If the CFL definitively says "let's do it," then I'll be supportive. Otherwise, it doesn't present any benefits at all.

[MonctonRad]

You need a CFL team to have a decent stadium. That is a necessary precondition.

The only other thing that could provoke major stadium construction would be hosting a major world class sporting event (like Halifax could have with the Commonwealth Games, and like Moncton sorta did with the IAAF Junior World Championships).

Without a major international sporting event or a CFL team to justify it, there is no rationale for a major new stadium in Halifax.

To get a CFL team, Halifax will need:

1) - CFL support (I think this one is a given).
2) - a dedicated local ownership group (I see no evidence of this).
3) - a proper stadium with at least 25,000 seats (Without both 1 & 2 in the bag, planning on #3 is a waste of money, pure and simple).

You guys need to work on local ownership. Once this is secured, then revisit the stadium issue........

[Nouvellecosse]

^ But if the CFL wanted a team here, why couldn't they just build a stadium for it? Sure they may not be the only ones using it, but if they built and owned it, they'd be the ones raking in the revenue from any other events being held there.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You need a CFL team to have a decent stadium. That is a necessary precondition.

The only other thing that could provoke major stadium construction would be hosting a major world class sporting event (like Halifax could have with the Commonwealth Games, and like Moncton sorta did with the IAAF Junior World Championships).

Without a major international sporting event or a CFL team to justify it, there is no rationale for a major new stadium in Halifax.

To get a CFL team, Halifax will need:

1) - CFL support (I think this one is a given).
2) - a dedicated local ownership group (I see no evidence of this).
3) - a proper stadium with at least 25,000 seats (Without both 1 & 2 in the bag, planning on #3 is a waste of money, pure and simple).

You guys need to work on local ownership. Once this is secured, then revisit the stadium issue........

Is Canada not putting in a bid to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup? Halifax should try to get in on it. If the bid fails, which is probable, Halifax would still have useful information regarding stadium location, size, and cost. If the bid should happen to succeed, it should open up federal and provincial funding for a stadium.
Regarding a Halifax CFL team's ownership, I think a good option would be a large group similar to the group that owned the NHL's Edmonton Oilers after Pocklington and before current owner Katz. IIRC, the Oilers group had 36 members. It was able to deal with the explosion in NHL player salaries in the '90's, a dollar worth less than 70 cents U.S., and an older arena that lacked some of the revenue producing amenities of arenas built in the '90's. Despite all of this, the Oilers were still able to have some on-ice success.
A group of 20 or so investors, in for about $1 million each, would provide a solid base for a Halifax team.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^ But if the CFL wanted a team here, why couldn't they just build a stadium for it? Sure they may not be the only ones using it, but if they built and owned it, they'd be the ones raking in the revenue from any other events being held there.

The CFL is not the NFL. They are basically penniless. Every year is a question mark. No way in the world they could afford to build a stadium. They are a minor league. I know nobody in my circle that has any interest in the CFL. I know a lot of NFL fans.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

This is a reasonable summary.

Keep in mind the Phase One report said that HRM should build a 10,000 seat stadium that could be expanded to 20,000 as needed, but built to a recreation/community standard. http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110802ca3iicow.pdf

Phase Two said build 10-14K community stadium, do not build 20-25K at this time. Council DID chose to continue to look at buying land at Shannon at that time. https://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/120327ca1011.pdf

Then most recently there was the Strategic Capital plan said that a $60 million dollar stadium was 10 years out and a medium priority. http://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/sccped/documents/140605jointcpedafsc42.pdf

So to see a report last week wanting to potentially spend tens of millions to buy land in Shannon to build a 20K+ seat stadium, well.... Council has been clear on what it wants.

I voted for the Capital Strategy - Forum, Dartmouth 4 pad, Sportsplex, Cogswell, and Downtown fund commit the municipality to $160 million or so over 5 years. We also approved working to flesh out potential projects for new/renewed libraries, cultural spaces funding program, higher order transit (rail or ferry), stadium, new police station, new fire training facility.

So to suddenly go to a place where the notional stadium could not possibly cost $60 million, would be double the recommended size. Jeeze.

I feel it was unfortunate, if staff had said "we need 5 acres and want to build something the same size and slightly nicer than Moncton at Shannon" I think that would have actually passed.

I couldn't support what came forward as it went against what all these expert committees and studies had said were needed, even when Kelly was Mayor and trying to load the dice all they could get was 10-14K.

Shannon Park major stadium aside, downtown/peninsula is in serious need of some adequate sports facilities.

I know several young families living who have to commute to Bedford for morning soccer practice, because there isn't adequate facilities on the peninsula.

We close down schools downtown / around peninsula and build sports facilities and four pad stadiums out in the suburbs, and we wonder why we can't get greater population growth downtown (beyond seniors who are downsizing).

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^ But if the CFL wanted a team here, why couldn't they just build a stadium for it? Sure they may not be the only ones using it, but if they built and owned it, they'd be the ones raking in the revenue from any other events being held there.

Good line of thinking, if the book publishers thought the people of Halifax might like to read then why did we not wait for the publishers to build a library?

What a waste of money when the books are available in the stores or on line

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The CFL is not the NFL. They are basically penniless. Every year is a question mark. No way in the world they could afford to build a stadium. They are a minor league. I know nobody in my circle that has any interest in the CFL. I know a lot of NFL fans.

The CFL is hardly broke. Most franchises will turn a profit this year. The league signed a tv deal with TSN last year that will pay it $40 million per year. Until people jumped on the Blue Jays bandwagon in the second half of this baseball season, the CFL was the second most watched sport in Canada behind the NHL.