Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I wonder about Seaview Park as a possible location. From what I've read, the park is mostly unknown and little used. It's also easily accessed from the MacKay, Bedford Highway, and the peninsula, being right on bus route 7, one of the peninsula's most important. I'm sure there would be some protest against the loss of park space, but that area also has several other parks, including Africville Park, which is basically right beside it.

Not a chance. The Africville activists would cry foul, claim racism, demand reparations, make a land claim - something to throw a wrench in the works for sure. And a stadium right on the harbour's edge guarantees cold, windy conditions when the rest of the area is nice. That is one of the drawbacks of Shannon Park as well. HRM would also need to make the north part of Barrington where it becomes the MacKay approaches more than a single lane of traffic, something it has steadfastly avoided doing for nearly 50 years

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I...
If it must be located so centrally, what about the industrial/big-box wasteland bordered by Almon, Robie and Windsor? I don't think there's a single structure worth preserving in that whole area, besides the Forum, and it's currently an anti-urban chunk of suburbia dropped into the centre of the city. It's full of under-used land, has good road connections out of town, and it's accessible by transit and on foot. I'm skeptical that a stadium is very useful for urban revitalization purposes, but there's nothing to lose by trying it out here--besides some strip malls, car dealerships, and one-storey warehouses.

Is there enough room at the former and soon to be demo'ed Piercy's/Rona site? I think it's come here in the past, but it was dismissed as being too small.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Is there enough room at the former and soon to be demo'ed Piercy's/Rona site? I think it's come here in the past, but it was dismissed as being too small.

I don't think so. It is about 1/3 of the size of the military site I referenced.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I don't see traffic as an issue because the games tend to happen either on weekends or weekday evenings. If the city can handle all the traffic from rush hour, I hardly think an off peak stadium event is going to overwhelm it. Especially considering there would be less traffic for a stadium in central areas as there would be people who have access to cars that would choose to drive to a stadium in a less accessible location who would walk or take transit to one located centrally. And the transit system is focused on central Halifax.

Rush hour can already get pretty bad, though. To have thousands of people driving at the same time all the way through the pensinsula, onto the most congested part of the street grid, would be a major traffic capacity challenge. Probably some events would overlap to some degree with rush hour as well.

Further north on the peninsula the roads are wider and there's a lot more traffic capacity, and it's closer to the access points on and off the peninsula.

And while it's great to make it walkable for peninsula residents, I think a North End site would be about as walkable as a downtown one--lots of people living nearby. And realistically, most people will be coming from suburban areas, or out of the city entirely. Or even out of the province. In a city of 400,000, in a province of one million, only about 65,000 people currently live on the peninsula.

There would be negotiations with land-owners required, but that's probably true of most sites. It wouldn't be that bad, since the land parcels are very large and the current uses are pretty low-intensity.

[someone123]

Does anybody know what the debate was like in HRM council, and the reasons councillors gave for their decision? It would be interesting to know what went on. There are no minutes available right now (and those are often pretty incomplete anyway).

I feel like HRM council decisions are usually pretty random when it comes to issues like this. Yes, let's do the CWGs, no too expensive, cancel them. Let's maybe do a soccer stadium for FIFA. No, let's not do that. Now we don't want to look at Shannon Park at all.

[ILoveHalifax]

Question - did the councillors vote no to a stadium or no to a stadium at Shannon Park?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

Does anybody know what the debate was like in HRM council, and the reasons councillors gave for their decision? It would be interesting to know what went on. There are no minutes available right now (and those are often pretty incomplete anyway).

I feel like HRM council decisions are usually pretty random when it comes to issues like this. Yes, let's do the CWGs, no too expensive, cancel them. Let's maybe do a soccer stadium for FIFA. No, let's not do that. Now we don't want to look at Shannon Park at all.

The mayor says the money from Ottawa and Halifax is not available and HRM faces large expenditures for water, performing arts, transit etc.
It's over ...... for a long time.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The mayor says the money from Ottawa and Halifax is not available and HRM faces large expenditures for water, performing arts, transit etc.
It's over ...... for a long time.

It's also kind of hard to argue that a stadium is a really crucial municipal investment.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's also kind of hard to argue that a stadium is a really crucial municipal investment.

Agreed.
I coached youth soccer in Dartmouth a long time ago. The fields were crap and I wasn't coaching future world beaters. The field at Dartmouth High has been rubbish for 40 years.
When I had a group from Boys and Girls club I had poor kids, slow learners, black kids, Lebanese kids and almost all from a one parent home. etc. I often drove a bunch to games and then back home. Long time after they became adults they would call me 'coach' and then talk about the games they played. One guy was a real hell raiser who lacked discipline, he played striker and was often sent off for swearing at refs. I just could not get him to settle down. Eventually he ended up in jail and after he was released we bumped into each other at the ferry terminal where he told me 'I played in jail coach and we never lost a game.' Jail changed him, 'Screw that, I now have a job and I'm not going back'.
Met many others and took a long time to realise that somehow I had a positive influence on them.
The bottom line is quite simple : all kids need some after school activity and HRM should ensure all kids are able to access such opportunities. And politicians need to stop listening and pandering to loud mouthed, well organised , middle class, two parent families.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's also kind of hard to argue that a stadium is a really crucial municipal investment.

Even after all this discussion, on this forum and in the city at large, I still haven't really understood what the case for a stadium would be.

I'd love someone to give me the elevator pitch justifying the expense for a city that doesn't even have a major-league team, and is unlikely to get one in the near future. Events and concerts are one thing, but consider: Edmonton's under-construction new arena will have concert-seating capacity for 20,000 people. Halifax is less than half the size of Edmonton, and the Metro Centre has seating for 11,000 people. So I think we're okay there.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The mayor says the money from Ottawa and Halifax is not available and HRM faces large expenditures for water, performing arts, transit etc.
It's over ...... for a long time.

The mayor is saying that for the media - today.

But yesterday at Council he left the chair and went to the floor to speak strongly in favor of proceeding. He (I believe, in concert with Butts) was clearly the main push behind this proposal and was very much in favor of obtaining the property from Canada Lands.

I watched it and some councillors seemed more put out by being blindsided by the reference to a new study for a much bigger facility than had been previously been discussed. Others were trying to move it forward with some pretty flimsy arguments. Then there were the usual types like Watts who only wanted HRM to spend money on trails and bike lanes. Basically it seemed that nobody other than the mayor and maybe Walker and Karsten wanted it to go ahead.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

Good riddance. I'm actually warming to your suggestion of the Salter block site. It doesn't seem like any actual development is going to take place on those sites. But aren't they still owned by a developer? The city would have to buy the parcels of land.

I think a stadium can be easier integrated into an urban fabric than people give it credit for. It just comes down to how well the exterior is designed. The exterior could look similar to existing buildings in the area (Bishops Landing or Brewery Market). It also wouldn't be as tall if it only seated 20-25,000. I hate to bring that up, but it is a factor in the urban fabric nonetheless.

I would really prefer a centrally located site for a future stadium, and I applaud you for an outside-the-box idea for a location.

The two blocks are owned by the Waterfront Development Corporation. WDCL wouldn't give the land away for free, but perhaps the province and municipality could strike some sort of deal. The land could also be leased since that's WDCL's standard approach for working with developers. Currently, there is nothing happening there. The Salter Block was going to be developed, but Armour couldn't get the development off the ground before the set timelines expired and WDCL pulled the plug. My understanding is that WDCL's priorities are the Cunard Block and Queens Landing. No immediate plans for Salter. Salter will probably end up being the last parking lots to get developed.

There is one section of property there that, if memory serves, is privately-owned: the old tugboat wharves. That would need to be acquired. Given how dilapidated the one wharf is getting, I'm sure WDCL has their eye on picking up those docks if they ever become available!

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The mayor is saying that for the media - today.

But yesterday at Council he left the chair and went to the floor to speak strongly in favor of proceeding. He (I believe, in concert with Butts) was clearly the main push behind this proposal and was very much in favor of obtaining the property from Canada Lands.

I watched it and some councillors seemed more put out by being blindsided by the reference to a new study for a much bigger facility than had been previously been discussed. Others were trying to move it forward with some pretty flimsy arguments. Then there were the usual types like Watts who only wanted HRM to spend money on trails and bike lanes. Basically it seemed that nobody other than the mayor and maybe Walker and Karsten wanted it to go ahead.

I think that is called 'talking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time'.
Can anyone see McNeil and Trudeau putting money into a stadium ?
'Hell' and 'freezing over' come to mind.

[ILoveHalifax]

Peter Kelly was working on a stadium/CFL team for Halifax and there was considerable excitement about it.
Seems to me that Mike Savage might be working on the same but he is more secretive about the whole thing. Hard to put forward a stadium plan without a CFL plan/proposal and if he has the connections he needs to lay his cards on the table.
A CFL team would do a lot more to promote civic pride than Watts riding a new bicycle lane.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I think that is called 'talking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time'.
Can anyone see McNeil and Trudeau putting money into a stadium ?
'Hell' and 'freezing over' come to mind.

That was very much the feeling. Savage did say during the debate that the city could always resell the land if it didn't pan out. Brad Johns was the next speaker and the first words out of his mouth was that anytime the idea of buying land for some future purpose on a just in case basis came up, councillors were always told that the municipality doesn't buy land on speculation. Whatever air Savage had tried to put back into the stadium balloon rushed out at that moment.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I don't know that a stadium on the waterfront is such a great idea. Seems like a waste of prime land to me, for a monstrosity that would only be used on occasion. I think that the focus for waterfront lands should be for projects/facilities that would be used every day, 12 months of the year that involve easy public access.

While I've never really been certain that a stadium is the right thing for our city right now, I would support the Windsor St. area idea over the waterfront or the Commons any day of the week. Actually, even Shannon Park looks better than those other ideas to me.

One thing that occurs to me is whether we should even be looking at a tax-funded stadium at this time. It seems to me that there are a lot of better places we should be putting our tax dollars these days. At this point I'd rather see my funding put towards something that will improve the city for most citizens, like a ramped-up transit system for example, and if there's a business case for a stadium, let the private sector foot the bill.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think Halifax is more likely to be the next Ottawa in a century, rather than NYC or Boston. North American cities are pretty slow growers and that's probably not going to abate...the relative sizes of cities on this continent was pretty well locked in decades ago, with a few exceptions (the sunbelt, Canadian prairies, etc
In any case, it's a moor point now, with council's decision.

Still, when it inevitably comes up again, I don't think the Salter block or the commons are desirable, for two reasons: two tight a fit, and, dare I say it, traffic. A stadium will attract people from across the province and to a degree NB/PEI, who will all be driving here.

If it must be located so centrally, what about the industrial/big-box wasteland bordered by Almon, Robie and Windsor? I don't think there's a single structure worth preserving in that whole area, besides the Forum, and it's currently an anti-urban chunk of suburbia dropped into the centre of the city. It's full of under-used land, has good road connections out of town, and it's accessible by transit and on foot. I'm skeptical that a stadium is very useful for urban revitalization purposes, but there's nothing to lose by trying it out here--besides some strip malls, car dealerships, and one-storey warehouses.

I hope we're better planned and more dense downtown than Ottawa, if that is our likely comparator destination.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

I hope we're better planned and more dense downtown than Ottawa, if that is our likely comparator destination.

Have you ever been to Ottawa? Ottawa has an insanely dense core, much denser than most Canadian cities. There are virtually no parking lots, highrises everywhere. The Stadium, which is south of downtown, doesn't even have enough parking for 90% of stadium goers.

Downtown Ottawa is relatively well planned too.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I watched it and some councillors seemed more put out by being blindsided by the reference to a new study for a much bigger facility than had been previously been discussed. Others were trying to move it forward with some pretty flimsy arguments.

This is a reasonable summary.

Keep in mind the Phase One report said that HRM should build a 10,000 seat stadium that could be expanded to 20,000 as needed, but built to a recreation/community standard. http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110802ca3iicow.pdf

Phase Two said build 10-14K community stadium, do not build 20-25K at this time. Council DID chose to continue to look at buying land at Shannon at that time. https://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/120327ca1011.pdf

Then most recently there was the Strategic Capital plan said that a $60 million dollar stadium was 10 years out and a medium priority. http://www.halifax.ca/boardscom/sccped/documents/140605jointcpedafsc42.pdf

So to see a report last week wanting to potentially spend tens of millions to buy land in Shannon to build a 20K+ seat stadium, well.... Council has been clear on what it wants.

I voted for the Capital Strategy - Forum, Dartmouth 4 pad, Sportsplex, Cogswell, and Downtown fund commit the municipality to $160 million or so over 5 years. We also approved working to flesh out potential projects for new/renewed libraries, cultural spaces funding program, higher order transit (rail or ferry), stadium, new police station, new fire training facility.

So to suddenly go to a place where the notional stadium could not possibly cost $60 million, would be double the recommended size. Jeeze.

I feel it was unfortunate, if staff had said "we need 5 acres and want to build something the same size and slightly nicer than Moncton at Shannon" I think that would have actually passed.

I couldn't support what came forward as it went against what all these expert committees and studies had said were needed, even when Kelly was Mayor and trying to load the dice all they could get was 10-14K.

[ILoveHalifax]

[QUOTE=Waye Mason;7234735]This is a reasonable summary.

Keep in mind the Phase One report said that HRM should build a 10,000 seat stadium that could be expanded to 20,000 as needed, but built to a recreation/community standard. http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/110802ca3iicow.pdf



.....build a 20K+ seat stadium, well.... Council has been clear on what it wants.

Thank you for your comments but that is the key phrase "WHAT COUNCIL WANTS".

Council seems to think they are building what they want and not what the public wants. I was not party to the meeting where council came up with its 14,000 play field but....

I was to other follow up meetings and the people, the citizens, the tax payers, the citizens of Halifax want a 20,000 plus stadium with the possibility of a CFL team.

So council can bury their heads and ignore the public, seems the only way for Halifax to get a stadium is to get rid of everybody on council.