Halifax Stadium Discussion

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by someone123

For what it's worth, I am not sold on the idea of building a stadium downtown, and the reports that have come out recently echo this sentiment.

I've never seen a large stadium that has been well-integrated into fine-grained urban fabric around it. The best stadiums have decent entrances and then large areas that feel more or less like Cogswell. These are the ones served with subways and rapid transit that Halifax probably won't have for a long time. The worst ones have huge areas of surface parking. Either way they're dead most of the time and then kind of annoying when events are on.

Keep in mind that in Halifax there's also a desire to start with a simpler stadium design. There are no major sports teams that can be relied on to draw huge crowds. As a result, the budget will be much lower than with other major stadiums in large cities, and the capacity to deal with an unusual waterfront site will be limited.

Putting a stadium out in the middle of nowhere is also bad, but Shannon Park is a reasonable happy medium. There can be temporary ferry service, decent bus service, and some mixed-use development nearby that can be planned with the stadium in mind.

I generally agree with you. A Downtown stadium, if designed cheaply, could be awful. My concern about Shannon Park is that same lack of capacity that worries you about Downtown. To accommodate a stadium, the city could end up taking half the site (it's what they wanted before) and the whole area could easily become a sea of surface parking. Building underground or a parking garage is expensive and there would be limited ability to share parking with residential (sharing can work with office but that's not what will be built at Shannon Park). Building a huge swath of surface parking would destroy Shannon Park's redevelopment potential. This is approximately what 3,075 cars on the surface would look like (grey area = 30 acres built to the approximate lip of the slope, yellow is what would be left to develop).

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Eh, I really don't see that as a viable location. Between the fact that it would have to be shoehorned in, leaving very little room for expansion or other contingencies, it would require a significant amount of infill and the loss of working wharves, it would potentially be even more at mercy to the elements than a location not projecting into the harbour, and the street infrastructure in that area is minimal (yes, I realize that one of the benefits to having it downtown is that public transit and walking become viable, but you're not going to eliminate street traffic altogether). Not to mention that the design will likely be on the cheap-ish side, so it'd be a bit of an eyesore on the boardwalk, or when viewed from the harbour.

Would rather Shannon Park to this. If built in conjunction with a planned mixed-use development there, a lot of the parking could be accommodated with additional underground parking in the surrounding buildings.

It wouldn't be easy, but there wouldn't be any loss of working wharves. There are none there (old photo). It would be challenging to work with, but at 20,000 seats, there really wouldn't be any need of more space. I think you overestimate the potential of sharing parking space at Shannon Park. Sharing spaces would work Downtown because the Downtown garages are really only full during the work day while most events at a stadium would be in the evening or weekend. We're not going to be building offices at Shannon Park (no demand). Shannon Park will be largely residential with some local commercial services. Residential buildings really can't share parking with something like a stadium because the cars are there at the same time (after hours) and because most people in a condo or apartment won't settle for not knowing if there is a spot for them in the garage when they come home. They want their own assigned space. So at Shannon Park, we're left with a crappy choice of covering the site with surface parking or building a very expensive garage. We would be better spending that $100 million that would go into a garage on the actual stadium.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by spaustin

I generally agree with you. A Downtown stadium, if designed cheaply, could be awful. My concern about Shannon Park is that same lack of capacity that worries you about Downtown. To accommodate a stadium, the city could end up taking half the site (it's what they wanted before) and the whole area could easily become a sea of surface parking. Building underground or a parking garage is expensive and there would be limited ability to share parking with residential (sharing can work with office but that's not what will be built at Shannon Park). Building a huge swath of surface parking would destroy Shannon Park's redevelopment potential. This is approximately what 3,075 cars on the surface would look like (grey area = 30 acres built to the approximate lip of the slope, yellow is what would be left to develop).

The most recent stadium report (a link was posted a couple days ago) mentioned the need to mitigate this, so at least city staff are thinking about this.

I doubt it will be possible to do a stadium without any surface parking, but with some nearby development, transit, and active transportation the need can be reduced a lot.

[Colin May]

Dartmouth Crossing : the developer has lots of land and would love to unload some of it.
Access to airport, major highways, transit, hotels and shopping.

Other options are on valuable land.

[hokus83]

They should build a 3rd harbour crossing and put the stadium on the Dartmouth side near the 111 in whst is now the valu village parking lot or put it right by the woodside ferry terminal or put in Dartmouth cove if there is enough space there.

[hokus83]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Dartmouth Crossing : the developer has lots of land and would love to unload some of it.
Access to airport, major highways, transit, hotels and shopping.

Other options are on valuable land.

Dartmouth crossing should be napalmed over anything else being built on it

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've never seen a large stadium that has been well-integrated into fine-grained urban fabric around it.

I promise i'm not nitpicking, but Hong Kong International Stadium:


Outside of the totally-not-nitpicking, most large stadiums in urban-fabric areas were built prior to, and thus essentially subsequently created, said urban fabric. I'm referring mostly to Bernabeu Stadium in Madrid.


Dartmouth Crossing is the worst possible choice.
Not that my opinion really matters but Shannon Park is probably the most probable at this stage.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I promise i'm not nitpicking, but Hong Kong International Stadium:

It looks like that one is surrounded by forest and maybe hills. In other words, it's not really surrounded urban fabric.

The Madrid example looks like it suffers from the problem I mentioned. It looks interesting from an aerial perspective but are those blank walls and 8-lane streets actually welcoming? This kind of thing reminds me of Cogswell and the Scotia Square area. It doesn't look like a very exciting addition to the downtown (and this is in Madrid, so imagine how much worse it must be than the nicest parts of that city): https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4519207,...MBdB_8uTc-t2A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Keep in mind that in the Halifax example some buildings, including heritage buildings, already exist near the Salter site. The neighbourhood isn't so great but it could become a really nice part of the city with some standard infill. I suspect that a stadium would render that impossible or highly unlikely.

[spaustin]

Council voted to not proceed with any further analysis of a stadium and not to purchase any land at Shannon Park. Letter to Canada Lands will be to tell the company to proceed with their planning process. A stadium might reappear again down the road (it has consistently for 30 years or so), but Shannon Park as a site looks to be out.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Council voted to not proceed with any further analysis of a stadium and not to purchase any land at Shannon Park. Letter to Canada Lands will be to tell the company to proceed with their planning process. A stadium might reappear again down the road (it has consistently for 30 years or so), but Shannon Park as a site looks to be out.

I heard the fat lady/ies singing. (All sopranos)

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Council voted to not proceed with any further analysis of a stadium and not to purchase any land at Shannon Park. Letter to Canada Lands will be to tell the company to proceed with their planning process. A stadium might reappear again down the road (it has consistently for 30 years or so), but Shannon Park as a site looks to be out.

Good riddance. I'm actually warming to your suggestion of the Salter block site. It doesn't seem like any actual development is going to take place on those sites. But aren't they still owned by a developer? The city would have to buy the parcels of land.

I think a stadium can be easier integrated into an urban fabric than people give it credit for. It just comes down to how well the exterior is designed. The exterior could look similar to existing buildings in the area (Bishops Landing or Brewery Market). It also wouldn't be as tall if it only seated 20-25,000. I hate to bring that up, but it is a factor in the urban fabric nonetheless.

I would really prefer a centrally located site for a future stadium, and I applaud you for an outside-the-box idea for a location.

[Nouvellecosse]

I think the best place would have been on the North Common where the Emera Oval is now. Personally I find the amount of open space in the area to be a bit overwhelming and often under utilized. Although now that the oval is there as a permanent fixture, that idea is out...

[MonctonRad]

The open space on the commons may seem overwhelming now, but in another 100 years time, when the surrounding streets are lined with residential towers, the residents of the peninsula will thank their forefathers that this space was preserved.

Can you imagine Manhattan without Central Park???

[Nouvellecosse]

I admire your confidence in us, but if we were really destined to become the next NYC, I think we'd have gotten some indication by now. If we're wildly optimistic, perhaps we'll be the next Boston in a century, but with Point Pleasant, Citadel Hill, the Public Gardens, and the rest of the Commons, we already have more centrally-located park land than them. Not to mention that space on the Commons occupied by public structures can be returned to parkland or other uses in the future. Just look at bell Rd. NSCC campus or the old highschool.

[Drybrain]

I think Halifax is more likely to be the next Ottawa in a century, rather than NYC or Boston. North American cities are pretty slow growers and that's probably not going to abate...the relative sizes of cities on this continent was pretty well locked in decades ago, with a few exceptions (the sunbelt, Canadian prairies, etc
In any case, it's a moor point now, with council's decision.

Still, when it inevitably comes up again, I don't think the Salter block or the commons are desirable, for two reasons: two tight a fit, and, dare I say it, traffic. A stadium will attract people from across the province and to a degree NB/PEI, who will all be driving here.

If it must be located so centrally, what about the industrial/big-box wasteland bordered by Almon, Robie and Windsor? I don't think there's a single structure worth preserving in that whole area, besides the Forum, and it's currently an anti-urban chunk of suburbia dropped into the centre of the city. It's full of under-used land, has good road connections out of town, and it's accessible by transit and on foot. I'm skeptical that a stadium is very useful for urban revitalization purposes, but there's nothing to lose by trying it out here--besides some strip malls, car dealerships, and one-storey warehouses.

[Nouvellecosse]

I don't see traffic as an issue because the games tend to happen either on weekends or weekday evenings. If the city can handle all the traffic from rush hour, I hardly think an off peak stadium event is going to overwhelm it. Especially considering there would be less traffic for a stadium in central areas as there would be people who have access to cars that would choose to drive to a stadium in a less accessible location who would walk or take transit to one located centrally. And the transit system is focused on central Halifax.

But I agree that the forum area would be good - if enough land could be acquired. But the fact that there's been quite a bit of development activity around there as of late, and that it would require negotiating with various private interests and then significant demolition before redevelopment, it adds a lot of extra complexity (and therefore cost).

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

If it must be located so centrally, what about the industrial/big-box wasteland bordered by Almon, Robie and Windsor? I don't think there's a single structure worth preserving in that whole area, besides the Forum, and it's currently an anti-urban chunk of suburbia dropped into the centre of the city. It's full of under-used land, has good road connections out of town, and it's accessible by transit and on foot. I'm skeptical that a stadium is very useful for urban revitalization purposes, but there's nothing to lose by trying it out here--besides some strip malls, car dealerships, and one-storey warehouses.

Exactly. Look at all this land, badly underused:




There are a few older Forces buildings there of no particular consequence along with the now-or-soon-to-be vacated former RCMP HQ. It is on the corner of Windsor and Bayers - you could not ask for a better location for traffic. And there is ample space for parking or ancilliary development. A land swap with the Forces or other sweetener would make huge sense if there was a way to get a stadium funded.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think Halifax is more likely to be the next Ottawa in a century, rather than NYC or Boston. North American cities are pretty slow growers and that's probably not going to abate...the relative sizes of cities on this continent was pretty well locked in decades ago, with a few exceptions (the sunbelt, Canadian prairies, etc
In any case, it's a moor point now, with council's decision.

This is a bit off topic, but one of the interesting things about Halifax's demographic history is that it hit a low point around 1930. Almost every city in North America was booming during the 1890-1930 period, but Halifax grew comparatively little during that period. Its relative ranking has been going up since then, particularly compared to other cities in the Northeast. It was one of the fastest-growing cities in the country in the 1940's and 50's (maybe actually the fastest-growing city in Canada during the 1940's).

In Canada's CMA populations Halifax actually went up by 1 recently, passing St. Chatharine's-Niagara (which is more a collection of small towns that happen to be near each other than a metropolitan area, but still).

In 1860 Halifax was a major city, in 1930 it was a small town, and in 2015 it's a medium-sized city again.

This is not to say that Halifax is a boomtown, but it has grown consistently for a long time. Unfortunately it seems to have a "low growth" culture, or at least it used to. Not sure if that's still true, but there was always a heavy bias against ambitious projects because there was a sense that they just weren't needed.

[Nouvellecosse]

I wonder about Seaview Park as a possible location. From what I've read, the park is mostly unknown and little used. It's also easily accessed from the MacKay, Bedford Highway, and the peninsula, being right on bus route 7, one of the peninsula's most important. I'm sure there would be some protest against the loss of park space, but that area also has several other parks, including Africville Park, which is basically right beside it.

[Nouvellecosse]

For that location, they'd need to build a little on/off ramp to connect to the MacKay approaches, and there would be a place for bus route 16 to stop. The route would be double frequency during event times. Perhaps there'd also be a special events shuttle to connect directly to Mumford.