The Great Canadian Skyline Thread!

[kool maudit]

Last one.

[flipv]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I was last in Halifax in 2013, and I didn't find it to feel very provincial at all. For its size and isolation, in fact, it was really pretty worldly and the universities, colleges and port connect it to the broader world quite efficiently (the commercial sector still feels a bit good old boy-ish, though).

The other thing, I think, is that English-speaking Canadians have a peculiar horror of provincialism, or seeming provincial. I think this is because we internalized a lot of that frontier/periphery feeling from our country's early history and are very eager to show the world that it no longer applies. There is this real hunger to appear up-to-the-minute.

Yesterday I found myself talking to a couple of Croatians about their country's recent election, and they were trying to explain how their electoral system works and what the problems are with it. They were in fine spirits, but their conversation was punctuated with well-meaning asides like "in order to understand this, you need to understand how stupid we Croatians are about [this or that thing]" and "this would work better in someplace like Finland, but we are too backwards still". It reminded how relatively rare it is for Canadians to air the dirty laundry of their self-perceptions like this, especially to outsiders. These guys were insouciant about it, though – Croatia obviously wasn't "the best", in fact it was worse, to their eyes, than its neighbours in distinct ways, but it has been there forever and will be there forever and to be Croatian is a fine thing all in all. That's the security we don't really have.

All that to say Halifax, I think, is very worldly for what it is. Paradoxically, it's only departure from that ideal is its slightly brittle sense of self-satisfaction, that little twinge that shows it's still striving.

(Quebec probably doesn't strive in the same way because Quebecers, for whatever reason, do not seem as concerned with "climbing the ladder" of the francophone world as we are with climbing the anglo one.)

The last time I was in Halifax, in fact, I flew in from Rome and my first meal, at La Frasca on Spring Garden, gave up nothing to the very similar one I had had the night before in Italy's 2500-year-old capital, right in the middle of the place on the Via Borgognona.

That is not too bad for a small city in Atlantic Canada. That would not have been the case 100, 50 or even 15 years ago. Even the smallest details were right.

That's just the good old Balkan mentality. Identical to pretty much any culture from Hungary down to Greece.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

That's why I was asking you about how it stacked up to secondary cities like Antwerp and Lyon.

Secondary European cities can sometimes seem "provincial" by the standards of the Anglosphere (whose great global apogee, I have come to think, is neither London nor New York nor Toronto but rather the shopping section of Heathrow airport – all people from all places, pre-screened by security and credit cards in hand) but when looked at on their own terms are simply... themselves.

Which is to say that it is hard to find delivery sushi at midnight in Lyon (I have tried: we had a Californian in the group.) but the local bouchon is three bottles of wine in and going strong to the point that it almost doesn't matter when they're gonna get a Korean taco truck.

Yeah, I get that. For some reason I am thinking of Krakow too. And I am not sure it's a solely secondary city thing either. Some country's largest cities and capital cities that are more off the beaten path like Ljubljana, Zagreb and Helsinki can be like this also. Of course, all of this is kind of fluid as well. Oslo used to be like this. Not so much anymore.

[Martin Mtl]

Montréal by Charles Ducrot on flickr

[mistercorporate]

Although well meaning, I find the level of subjectivity and pretension on this thread rather nauseating. Needless to say I disagree with many of the strongly asserted cultural statements pertaining to Canada vs the RoW, not out of defensiveness but due to a visceral discomfort with inaccuracy.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Although well meaning, I find the level of subjectivity and pretension on this thread rather nauseating. Needless to say I disagree with many of the strongly asserted cultural statements pertaining to Canada vs the RoW, not out of defensiveness but due to a visceral discomfort with inaccuracy.

And yet with your post showing obvious discomfort at certain views being openly discussed on here, you're basically proving our point. Even though we're not really discussing stuff that creates hierarchies of people as either lesser or better, but simply noting how they are different. It's pretty innocuous but still it's too much for some.

Now, I am aware of the push to render differences between humans and groups of humans as meaningless as possible. Or at least, our urge to pretend they don't exist. I grew up with all of that too, and I know the reasons: to get out of the stereotype straitjackets under which women couldn't be more than secretaries, black guys can't play quarterback, gay people can't be soldiers, etc. There was a lot of good that came out of that.

But pretending that everyone is exactly the same even to the point of censoring fairly innocuous discussions such as these is just ridiculous. In addition to being, for lack of a better term, ''unhuman".

It all reminds me of Voltaire: cachez ce sein que je ne saurais voir.

[kool maudit]

Figures Every time I opine about my country* I wind up being told that, not only am I a pompous fool, but I am also factually incorrect. My aim? 1 out of 2. Like, I'm right about something but still an asshole, or vice versa.

You have to set goals in life.

(* Admittedly, my opinions are usually sort of mocking but... it's my country. I know it too well to admire it.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Figures Every time I opine about my country* I wind up being told that, not only am I a pompous fool, but I am also factually incorrect. My aim? 1 out of 2. Like, I'm right about something but still an asshole, or vice versa.

You have to set goals in life.

(* Admittedly, my opinions are usually sort of mocking but... it's my country. I know it too well to admire it.)

If it can serve to assuage some concerns, stuff like this *does* tug at my heart strings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upsZZ2s3xv8

Though on second thought, maybe that's the wrong Canada I am bringing up. Maybe I am just making things worse here?

Could someone please provide me with an acceptable symbol of the Brave New Canada, so I can pay my reverence to it?

Golly gosh. What's a Canadian patriot to do these days?

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Last one.

What city is this?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

What city is this?

Lyon.

[Acajack]

Oh yeah, and BTW I wish everyone on here as many 200 m skyscrapers as they want in each of their cities!

[mistercorporate]

You guys are being presumptuous about the intent of my statement. I'm not advocating "equality, equality", I'm just disagreeing with the premise that A) obnoxious ethnocentric conversations are a sign of cultural or societal maturity and B) that Canadians are culturally inferior to hyper-ethnocentric societies because we are generally socially polite and diplomatic (generally!) relative to other societies.

Language can be used as an instrument of violence (I've been guilty of this as well) and societies where such violence and other forms of social exclusion are accepted tend to be less socially mature even if they have rich and sophisticated roots and great depth otherwise.

There's a great air of "nouveau international" in the way everything that is new and novel in a new society (in this case Europe) is projected as being wonderful and sophisticated while the new world is looked down ones nose as being so simpleton and shallow. It's a real Montreal-centric perspective of Canada in my opinion, I just don't see Canada as being nearly as insecure and introverted as you guys project it to be. The real Canada is both the dynamic, international and business oriented yet fun (if self-absorbed) cities and it's equally fun and very extroverted small towns (there is no lack of friendliness, warmth and social life in rural Ontario, I'll tell you that much). I party in both of those Canada's yet I don't see anyone giving a flying f&%$ what goes on at the other side of the pond.

My family in the UK (I won't get into details about other European countries as this post is already long enough) fit into two boxes. The East End London working class box and the Oxbridge/Knightsbridge crowd, in no way are their experiences superior to what we have going on here. What you get here is what you make of it and vice versa. Sure the TV is better there in my opinion, but they are obsessed with the TV here and are asking for a heads up about shows they may not have been exposed to so they can get downloading. Anyway, the point being that it's great your experiences have been seductive and resonate with your personality, but don't paint with decisive (and yes, inaccurate) broad brush strokes to state equivocally on European social superiority and that a good chunk of those on the other side wouldn't give up their left nut to experience the depth and unique qualities of this society and culture(s). It's simply not true.

[koops65]

Wow, I don't know where this conversation devolved from...

If we're going to talk about Europe and NA, lets at least discuss Europe's and NA's skylines... this is the skyline thread, isn't it?

[kool maudit]

Canadians aren't inferior, mistercorporate. Far from it. It's just that, like all people, the facts of our history give us little quirks and weirdnesses. I don't notice the ones in Denmark as much because this isn't my country. I know the Danes do, though, because I watch how they get exasperated with each other.

I notice Canada's ones and it's not because I think the place should be other than it is, or would be better if it were "old world" ... it's just because I am Canadian and I will never be able to pick apart another country's little peculiarities like I can those of my own one.

It's like how you can insult your friend, sure, but you can REALLY get under your brother's skin if you want to. You know all his little weird things.

But he is your brother.

If Canada had all of the old world qualities that you seem to think I want it to have, I'd probably tease it for being stifling and old-fashioned.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Montréal by Charles Ducrot on flickr

Best view IMO, hands down.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by koops65

Wow, I don't know where this conversation devolved from...

If we're going to talk about Europe and NA, lets at least discuss Europe's and NA's skylines... this is the skyline thread, isn't it?

Good point. And, man, do I miss a North American skyline. Because it doesn't matter how many tall skyscrapers you build in outer Madrid or La Defense, in Canada the tallest ones generally signify the centre of the action, the oldest and most layered part, downtown.

And we don't have that here.

[G.S MTL]

^ that is one of my favorite photos of MTL

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

You guys are being presumptuous about the intent of my statement. I'm not advocating "equality, equality", I'm just disagreeing with the premise that A) obnoxious ethnocentric conversations are a sign of cultural or societal maturity and B) that Canadians are culturally inferior to hyper-ethnocentric societies because we are generally socially polite and diplomatic (generally!) relative to other societies.

Language can be used as an instrument of violence (I've been guilty of this as well) and societies where such violence and other forms of social exclusion are accepted tend to be less socially mature even if they have rich and sophisticated roots and great depth otherwise.

There's a great air of "nouveau international" in the way everything that is new and novel in a new society (in this case Europe) is projected as being wonderful and sophisticated while the new world is looked down ones nose as being so simpleton and shallow. It's a real Montreal-centric perspective of Canada in my opinion, I just don't see Canada as being nearly as insecure and introverted as you guys project it to be. The real Canada is both the dynamic, international and business oriented yet fun (if self-absorbed) cities and it's equally fun and very extroverted small towns (there is no lack of friendliness, warmth and social life in rural Ontario, I'll tell you that much). I party in both of those Canada's yet I don't see anyone giving a flying f&%$ what goes on at the other side of the pond.

My family in the UK (I won't get into details about other European countries as this post is already long enough) fit into two boxes. The East End London working class box and the Oxbridge/Knightsbridge crowd, in no way are their experiences superior to what we have going on here. What you get here is what you make of it and vice versa. Sure the TV is better there in my opinion, but they are obsessed with the TV here and are asking for a heads up about shows they may not have been exposed to so they can get downloading. Anyway, the point being that it's great your experiences have been seductive and resonate with your personality, but don't paint with decisive (and yes, inaccurate) broad brush strokes to state equivocally on European social superiority and that a good chunk of those on the other side wouldn't give up their left nut to experience the depth and unique qualities of this society and culture(s). It's simply not true.

You're making a lot of assumptions here, not the least of which is that I think the old world ways are generally superior. In actuality, I probably prefer a hybrid of sorts.

[SkahHigh]

East Downtown skyline

High ground by Fred Plante, sur Flickr

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Canadians aren't inferior, mistercorporate. Far from it. It's just that, like all people, the facts of our history give us little quirks and weirdnesses. I don't notice the ones in Denmark as much because this isn't my country. I know the Danes do, though, because I watch how they get exasperated with each other.

I notice Canada's ones and it's not because I think the place should be other than it is, or would be better if it were "old world" ... it's just because I am Canadian and I will never be able to pick apart another country's little peculiarities like I can those of my own one.

It's like how you can insult your friend, sure, but you can REALLY get under your brother's skin if you want to. You know all his little weird things.

But he is your brother.

If Canada had all of the old world qualities that you seem to think I want it to have, I'd probably tease it for being stifling and old-fashioned.

Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I have a better appreciation of where you're coming from now. Though to be fair, it isn't readily apparent when one reads your previous posts. Anyway, I agree on this at least.