The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Looking at the annual ridership stats, the Montreal metro has annual ridership of about 356 million, and AMT (bus and rail) has about 19 million. The TTC subway has about 325 million and GO transit about 68.2 million. Toronto 393, Montreal 375.

Then compare the populations. the GTA has practically a metro Vancouver over Greater Montreal. Voilà.

Montreal has a more transit-captive population than Toronto. Some of it has to do with lower incomes, but a lot of it may have to do with the fact that Montreal has more people living in walkable, prewar areas, and the fact that Montreal made the decision to build a subway network that's oriented more toward inner city trips than bringing people in from the suburbs. I think that you can always net a higher ridership if you service areas where people are inclined to take transit for all their trips, than position your subway as a long-distance commute pipeline for suburbanites.

The Blue Line is perhaps the best example (a Toronto equivalent would be a subway that has operated under Eglinton for the past 30 years), but there are other things, such as serving the downtown core with two parallel but separate lines, rather than Toronto's approach, where a trip downtown more or less involves taking the Y-U-S (given that most of the jobs are well south of Bloor). This really just highlights the need for a DRL more than any other transit project.

[franktko]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I wonder how much Montreal's comparatively low figure has to do with the fact that Montreal has built a massive amount of freeways in the past 20 years.

Massive?? Not sure what you're talking about. The only new highway I can think of in the last 20 years is finishing the 30 between Vaudreuil and Candiac on the south shore and the 25 bridge between Laval and the Island. 0 freeway development on the island...

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by franktko

Massive?? Not sure what you're talking about. The only new highway I can think of in the last 20 years is finishing the 30 between Vaudreuil and Candiac on the south shore and the 25 bridge between Laval and the Island. 0 freeway development on the island...

The island is built out, so any freeway project would either have to be fully tunneled or involve the expropriation of homes at market cost. This means that building highways through cities is not economically feasible, and this is true even in places where they are addicted to cars.

On the other hand, there have been quite a few freeway projects off the island in the past 20 years:

A-30, as you said
A-35, south from St. Jean-sur-Richilieu
A-25 from A-40 to Saint Esprit, including a linkup to the A-440.
A-530 into Salaberry-de-Valleyfield
A-50 from Mirabel toward Gatineau

There are probably others. Isn't there a plan to extend A-19 north? Montreal already had the densest freeway network in Canada a generation ago, and now it is getting a bit excessive.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The Blue Line is perhaps the best example (a Toronto equivalent would be a subway that has operated under Eglinton for the past 30 years), but there are other things, such as serving the downtown core with two parallel but separate lines, rather than Toronto's approach, where a trip downtown more or less involves taking the Y-U-S (given that most of the jobs are well south of Bloor). This really just highlights the need for a DRL more than any other transit project.

...but not through Union.

A DRL through Queen or King might better serve the downtown core, yet not overburden Union.

[SkahHigh]

^yeah they might plan extending the A-19 to Bois-des-Filion. And you're right, we are building too many freeways...

[franktko]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The island is built out, so any freeway project would either have to be fully tunneled or involve the expropriation of homes at market cost. This means that building highways through cities is not economically feasible, and this is true even in places where they are addicted to cars.

On the other hand, there have been quite a few freeway projects off the island in the past 20 years:

A-30, as you said
A-35, south from St. Jean-sur-Richilieu
A-25 from A-40 to Saint Esprit, including a linkup to the A-440.
A-530 into Salaberry-de-Valleyfield
A-50 from Mirabel toward Gatineau

There are probably others. Isn't there a plan to extend A-19 north? Montreal already had the densest freeway network in Canada a generation ago, and now it is getting a bit excessive.

None of the above will have any "relief" on traffic problem in Montréal

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Talk about a Tale of Two Cities there. One Embracing the LRT and its potentials, and the other turning its back to it basically. Be interesting to see how things pan out for them in the end.

How badly does Brampton's decision screw KW and the rest of the cities beyond it?

While the no vote in Brampton is troubling. I think many of you are being a little hard on Brampton. Brampton has done more than almost any suburban city in the country to improve public transit over the last decade.

Brampton Council has supported vastly increased funding and service levels to bus services throughout Brampton. The result has been one of the highest ridership growth rates in the country.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Looking at the annual ridership stats, the Montreal metro has annual ridership of about 356 million, and AMT (bus and rail) has about 19 million. The TTC subway has about 325 million and GO transit about 68.2 million. Toronto 393, Montreal 375.

Then compare the populations. the GTA has practically a metro Vancouver over Greater Montreal. Voilà.

Yet the Toronto CMA's modal share for transit commuters is 23.3% vs. 22.2% for Montreal, while car commuters account for 70.9% and 70.8% respectively. Within the municipalities of Toronto and Montreal the modal shares are again similar. Remember that the STM serves a larger portion of Montreal's metro area than the TTC does for Toronto's, which is limited to the city.

Montreal has less congestion than Toronto because it has less people and more freeways. But one of the other big reasons for Toronto's congestion is the way the streets were laid out. Whereas Montreal resembles more closely a "proper" North American street grid of neatly arranged perpendicular streets with typically alternating directions, Toronto's has more in common with a British high street arrangement. All through traffic, including surface transit, bikes, and pedestrians, is pushed to 2-lane, bidirectional high streets spaced every half kilometre or so, while a haphazard tangle of unconnected back streets are impassable for anything other than local traffic. These just weren't built to handle the volume of traffic they now do.








Another consideration is just the way a city's geography is laid out. Central Montreal is (sort of) accessible from 360 degrees for example (but with one side being limited to bridges of course. The mountain would also contribute to traffic), with the city spreading beyond in all those directions; while Toronto's downtown is at an "edge" of the urbanized area. An inland city would be comparatively more accessible than either, while a place like Manhattan has particularly bad congestion because access is limited to a handful of choke points. Other cities have their own considerations.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Montreal has a more transit-captive population than Toronto. Some of it has to do with lower incomes, but a lot of it may have to do with the fact that Montreal has more people living in walkable, prewar areas, and the fact that Montreal made the decision to build a subway network that's oriented more toward inner city trips than bringing people in from the suburbs. I think that you can always net a higher ridership if you service areas where people are inclined to take transit for all their trips, than position your subway as a long-distance commute pipeline for suburbanites.

I don't think that's correct. Montreal's greater pre-war population (1,064,653 in 1941 vs. 951,549 in Toronto) would suggest a slightly more expansive pre-war urban core, but Toronto's has had a lot more infill development & population growth since then. I imagine they're pretty similar now.

The efficient, inner city-oriental layout of Montreal's subway can certainly explain its higher ridership than Toronto's though, which wastes much of its length on low-ridership sections like Sheppard and the northern extent of the Spadina line, while ignoring broad swaths of the densely built east & west ends of the inner city.

[Innsertnamehere]

the 905 has arterial streets spaced 2km apart generally as well (old concession roads), compared to Montreal which seems to be more 1-1.5km apart. Less roads to carry similar densities means more congestion.

[manny_santos]

Is it just me, or does the TTC have an abnormally high number of emergency alarm (EA) activations on Monday mornings compared to other days/hours of the week?

This is the third Monday morning in a row I've been delayed by multiple EAs on the way to work.

I know that before the alarms were rebranded from "passenger assistance" alarms to emergency alarms last year, the majority of these alarms were not emergencies (according to the TTC's own figures). I'm curious how many of these alarms nowadays are legitimate. It just seems odd that there seems to be so many more during Monday morning rush hour than at other peak times throughout the week. I've also noticed these alarms spike the morning after a long weekend, such as the day after Labour Day when I was delayed by no less than 3 EAs on the way to work.

Since the rebrand a year ago, have any TTC riders here seen an actual alarm activation? What happened and was it a legitimate emergency?

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Does anyone know where I can find the line specific ridership figures for the MTL metro?

Hey, check out the www.apta.com site, the new 2015 2nd quarter ridership stats came out today. Unfortunately Montreal, as well as Ottawa and Vancouver had significant ridership declines over compared with the same quarter as last year with Montreal having the largest decline.

The vast majority of US systems saw major declines in ridership with Salt Lake City, Seattle, Minneapolis, Philly, and Pittsburgh being the only major cities seeing decent rates of growth.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I don't think that's correct. Montreal's greater pre-war population (1,064,653 in 1941 vs. 951,549 in Toronto) would suggest a slightly more expansive pre-war urban core, but Toronto's has had a lot more infill development & population growth since then. I imagine they're pretty similar now.

The efficient, inner city-oriental layout of Montreal's subway can certainly explain its higher ridership than Toronto's though, which wastes much of its length on low-ridership sections like Sheppard and the northern extent of the Spadina line, while ignoring broad swaths of the densely built east & west ends of the inner city.

Yeah, the pre-war populations are probably similar now with Toronto gaining an edge. I think inner city Toronto might have higher average incomes, though (just a guess - I could find this out in 90 seconds using census stats), and thus less of a transit captive population.

Another big factor that may lower transit ridership in Toronto is the fact that the TTC's Metropass is one of the least competitive transit passes around. When you have to take 51(!) trips a month in order to justify a pass, most people will just forego it, buy tokens and use other means of getting around when they aren't commuting. Anecdotally, that's what I used to do. My girlfriend and I would usually drive from our inner city apartment to another inner city restaurant. It didn't justify spending $10.60 to wait for the streetcar and parking was usually free after 8, anyway.

[nephersir7]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

On the other hand, there have been quite a few freeway projects off the island in the past 20 years:

A-30, as you said
A-35, south from St. Jean-sur-Richilieu
A-25 from A-40 to Saint Esprit, including a linkup to the A-440.
A-530 into Salaberry-de-Valleyfield
A-50 from Mirabel toward Gatineau

The A-35 and A-50 extensions weren't really in the Greater Montreal Area.
The new A-530 stretch was part of the A-30 project (the A-930 too).
The A-25 project was only from the A-40 to the A-440.

So really, it's just the A30 and the A25 as franktko said.

[Coldrsx]

edmonton.ca

[Chadillaccc]

That looks great!

[Hali87]

Looks fantastic!

It's something I don't think about much, but cycling in a city like Edmonton (flat, long straight streets) is probably a really different experience from here in Halifax (hilly, winding roads, fractured street grid). It will be interesting to see if the infrastructure response is different or if different demographics cycle in each city. Is cycling practical in the winter in Edmonton?

[Coldrsx]

It is for 70-80% of the year, although some do all.

[Chadillaccc]

Flat? You do know that a 200 foot deep river valley cuts Edmonton in half, right?

[Coldrsx]

#highlevelbridgegotyou