Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Where does Translink plan on storing the new rolling stock and have considerations been made for building a second yard? With the great potential for future expansion it seems this will become necessary, where would be the optimal location>

The Evergreen extension to the Millennium Line includes a new vehicle storage & inspection facility in Coquitlam.

[SpongeG]

hope you don't mind me asking a question, i am coming back down for a visit next week, i briefly caught/read a headline, i never read the article, but it said the fare zone payment was gone replaced by a new one fare system. So what kind of tickets do you buy now? I will take the train in from the airport to lougheed town centre station which used to be 2 zones, what would it be now?

[WBC]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

hope you don't mind me asking a question, i am coming back down for a visit next week, i briefly caught/read a headline, i never read the article, but it said the fare zone payment was gone replaced by a new one fare system. So what kind of tickets do you buy now? I will take the train in from the airport to lougheed town centre station which used to be 2 zones, what would it be now?

The one zone system is only for buses. Your ride would be 2 zones, but there is a $5 surcharge on trips from YVR. So your trip will cost you a total of $9 = $4 for 2 zone fare plus $5 surcharge ('cuz tourists and travelers are there to be robbed blind)

[SpongeG]

okay thanks, i usually buy tickets at the 7-11 before getting on the train to aovid the $5 surcharge, which isn't too bad really

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

"Expo Line (station upgrades, for example), should assume that the line will one day be used at its maximum capacity (5-car operations)."

Can the Expo Line not be expanded past 5 cars for some, reason? Are the platforms not long enough for 5 car trains at present?

Where does Translink plan on storing the new rolling stock and have considerations been made for building a second yard? With the great potential for future expansion it seems this will become necessary, where would be the optimal location>

The platforms were designed for 6-car MK I trains which is 76.2 m (12.7m per car.) The 4-car MK II (A-B,A-B) trains are 69.4 m, and basically have 4 meters of unusable space in the center.

The ART 200 (MK II) is 17.35m for the individual A/B ends. Based on the photos we've seen of the Mark III, I'm going to hazard to guess that the C cars are about 15m. So an A-C-C-B might be 64.7 and a A-C-C-C-B could be 79.7. Basically from the images it looks like the C car's are the same as A/B cars minus the front.

But hey we don't know anything really right now.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

my guess is 5 car trains will fit on the platform if you are looking from door-door. not end-end. same as for the Canada Line. the doors will fit but not the train.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The platforms were designed for 6-car MK I trains which is 76.2 m (12.7m per car.) The 4-car MK II (A-B,A-B) trains are 69.4 m, and basically have 4 meters of unusable space in the center.

The ART 200 (MK II) is 17.35m for the individual A/B ends. Based on the photos we've seen of the Mark III, I'm going to hazard to guess that the C cars are about 15m. So an A-C-C-B might be 64.7 and a A-C-C-C-B could be 79.7. Basically from the images it looks like the C car's are the same as A/B cars minus the front.

But hey we don't know anything really right now.

The centre cars are 16.7m long, so:

2-cars MkII A-B = 34.7m
4-cars MkI A-B+A-B = 50.8m
3-cars MkIII A-C-B = 51.4m
4-cars MkIII A-C-C-B = 68.1m
4-cars MkII A-B+A-B = 69.4m
6-cars MkI A-B+A-B+A-B = 76.2m
== platform length 80m ==
5-cars MkIII A-C-C-C-B = 84.8m
5-cars MkIII A-C-B+A-B = 86.4m
== platform length + expansion 100m ==
6-cars MkIII A-C-C-C-C-B = 101.5m
8-cars MkI A-B+A-B+A-B+A-B = 101.6m
6-cars MkII A-B+A-B+A-B = 104.1m

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

my guess is 5 car trains will fit on the platform if you are looking from door-door. not end-end. same as for the Canada Line. the doors will fit but not the train.

Thanks nname, excellent information as usual. In words, this means:

You are absolutely correct. That was the plan when the Mark II's came along. It's been discussed here on SSP years ago when the Mark IIs first started rolling out ( circa 2001, btw ) on the Millennium Line. Mark I's were designed to fit on 80m platforms, Mk IIs were designed to be larger and better utilize the whole platform.

There was always a design option to fit Mark II's with an ACB car, ( so ACB-AB ) and the train would overhang the platform, with the doors being within the 80m. The option wasn't exercised in Vancouver, but it was built into the design-specs.

This design configuration allowed maximum flexibility and maximum utilization of platforms. 2-car trains, 3-car trains, 4-car trains, 5-car trains.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

"Expo Line (station upgrades, for example), should assume that the line will one day be used at its maximum capacity (5-car operations)."

Can the Expo Line not be expanded past 5 cars for some, reason? Are the platforms not long enough for 5 car trains at present?

Actually, I'm pretty sure the EXPO line is EASIER to expand than the M-Line. It was 'slightly' over-engineered as projects that use new technologies usually are. That doesn't mean it will be easy... or cheap to do so, especially downtown.

Where does Translink plan on storing the new rolling stock and have considerations been made for building a second yard? With the great potential for future expansion it seems this will become necessary, where would be the optimal location>

This was one of the problems with ordering A-C-B configurations in the past. They didn't have a facility long enough to repair them as they'd have to live the entire trainset up to do work on them. I remember discussion about this a few years ago when the Evergreen extension of the M-Line was being planned. I believe they were going to have an auxiliary yard in the Tri-cities area? I haven't followed that extension too closely, so I don't know the details of the yard there.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Actually, I'm pretty sure the EXPO line is EASIER to expand than the M-Line. It was 'slightly' over-engineered as projects that use new technologies usually are. That doesn't mean it will be easy... or cheap to do so, especially downtown.

This was one of the problems with ordering A-C-B configurations in the past. They didn't have a facility long enough to repair them as they'd have to live the entire trainset up to do work on them. I remember discussion about this a few years ago when the Evergreen extension of the M-Line was being planned. I believe they were going to have an auxiliary yard in the Tri-cities area? I haven't followed that extension too closely, so I don't know the details of the yard there.

Does anyone know if there's any chance Translink will order M2 C Cars?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Does anyone know if there's any chance Translink will order M2 C Cars?

The MkII are out of production. I don't think TransLink will pay Bombardier extra to reactivate the product and go through the trouble of putting brand-new C-cars into the A/B that are already 15+ years old. They can just buy new MkIIIs with the full 40 years of life instead.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Does anyone know if there's any chance Translink will order M2 C Cars?

I would guess pretty much zero. There was a study you can still find with google called something like Expo Capacity study. It gave a bunch of options like all 4 car or all 5 car operations and gave costs and project requirements. One of the requirements for 5 car operations is 87m stations. Since Translink has ordered 4 car trains and most of the station upgrades do not include 87m platforms it seems pretty clear they are going with the 4 car option....which the modelling shows will be fine IF Broadway gets built

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Does anyone know if there's any chance Translink will order M2 C Cars?

They don't need to. AFAIK the C cars are just "headless" A/B cars. If it came down to some technical necessity they could probably just covert A/B to C. The point of the A/B cars is that's where the manual controls are. It's also likely possible that the MK III C cars can be used with the MK II's.

If the A/B cars and the C cars cost essentially the same, then you're better off just buying the entire train as a 3/4/5 car set and get a new warranty on the entire thing.

There's plenty that we don't know without working at the OMC. Obviously there needs to be space to store and maintain trainsets, so converting the existing trains to 5-car sets would require converting that space at some point. It likely won't be done until the MK I's are retired.

[dpogue]

It would make more sense IMO to replace the Mark Is with 4- or 5-car Mark IIIs, and leave the Mark IIs operating in 4-car configuration.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Kisai

They don't need to. AFAIK the C cars are just "headless" A/B cars. If it came down to some technical necessity they could probably just covert A/B to C. The point of the A/B cars is that's where the manual controls are. It's also likely possible that the MK III C cars can be used with the MK II's.

If the A/B cars and the C cars cost essentially the same, then you're better off just buying the entire train as a 3/4/5 car set and get a new warranty on the entire thing.

There's plenty that we don't know without working at the OMC. Obviously there needs to be space to store and maintain trainsets, so converting the existing trains to 5-car sets would require converting that space at some point. It likely won't be done until the MK I's are retired.

No. MkIIs are more or less permanently tied together. C cars from MkIII cars are likely not compatible with older MkII cars and they're ordered as sets. You can't just slot in a "C" car into an existing AB pair. I don't think it would be worth it in any case. IF ( big IF ) there is a real crunch, the only think I could see happening is pairing a ACB Mk III with an AB Mk II but even then, I don't see that happening.

[red-paladin]

It was spoken about at one point that Translink could buy a bunch of Mark III A-C-B three car trains and run then connected to MkII A-Bs to make 5 car trains.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

It was spoken about at one point that Translink could buy a bunch of Mark III A-C-B three car trains and run then connected to MkII A-Bs to make 5 car trains.

Yep, absolutely... but I don't see it happening any time soon and not unless it's really necessary. Generally it's not a good idea to mix old n' new unless you have to.

[Spork]

It would make more sense to make ALL of the MKIs 6-car sets and order more MKIII 5-car sets before ordering any new MKII C-cars or retiring any cars. Remember that they don't need to lengthen the MKIIs when they still have space to lengthen MKIs and can simply order more trains to replace the effective reduction in capacity.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Yep, absolutely... but I don't see it happening any time soon and not unless it's really necessary. Generally it's not a good idea to mix old n' new unless you have to.

Oh I agree.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Oh I agree.

Do the C cars have motors and/or brakes?