PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by photoLith

I dont think this has been shared before but heres an updated plan by Trek for the Garden Block redevelopment, and it looks way better than the last proposal I saw.

http://www.alleghenycitycentral.org/wp-c...ng-Presentation-Garden-Theater-Block.pdf

It looks pretty similar to the last renderings i think. I like both versions. It's got great massing and a high quality look.
Build it!

[BrianTH]

We saw the color combination slides before--and I still like the one with the blue corner.

[GeneW]

At this point, I just want to see anything get going on that project.

[TBone7281]

Construction Up in Pittsburgh Region

Contractors enjoyed rising demand for homebuilding and commercial construction in late summer, leading modest overall growth in the region's economy, the Federal Reserve said Wednesday.
Nonresidential contractors in the Fed's Fourth District, which includes Pittsburgh, were the most optimistic. They reported robust demand for government projects, commercial buildings and apartments, and added employees to keep up with backlogs, according to the central bank's periodic survey of its 12 regions, known as the Beige Book. Homebuilders said single-family home sales were up and that they were cautiously optimistic the trend will continue.

[TBone7281]

$150M East Liberty project expected to help revitalize East End

Well I would hope so...

Basically the article says that things are going well for East Liberty, assuming you are for less crime and more business. However, it goes on to say:

Alethea Sims, president of the Coalition of Organized Residents of East Liberty Inc., a nonprofit that advocates for low-income families, said the development is pushing poor people who rely on bus service farther away.

“For years, they told us look at the big picture,” she said. “I'm looking at the big picture and seeing more and more people who should really benefit from this kind of thing get cropped out of it.”

East Liberty, a crime- and blight-plagued community for decades, has had economic growth in recent years.

So, I get where they're coming from, I guess... but what do you do? Lower the crime in a relatively prime location and add new development is going to push up demand/prices.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by TBone7281

Construction Up in Pittsburgh Region

I always find it curious how the local newspapers refer to the Federal Reserve Fourth District (based in Cleveland) as "the Pittsburgh region".

The Pittsburgh region makes up only a fraction of the Fourth District, which includes the entirety of Ohio as well as portions of KY and WV. If anything, the Fourth District's construction/economic metrics are going to closely parallel the state of Ohio, which makes up roughly 2/3 of the District's population.

[TBone7281]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

I always find it curious how the local newspapers refer to the Federal Reserve Fourth District (based in Cleveland) as "the Pittsburgh region".

The Pittsburgh region makes up only a fraction of the Fourth District, which includes the entirety of Ohio as well as portions of KY and WV. If anything, the Fourth District's construction/economic metrics are going to closely parallel the state of Ohio, which makes up roughly 2/3 of the District's population.

Yeah, I sort of assume "slow news day". But I also figure that construction being up in the overall region isn't a bad thing, either.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So I would first note that I think walking and biking commutes are important too, and adding more office to East Liberty would give more people living nearby an opportunity for that sort of commute.

I'd also note there are in fact a lot of communities that have decent transit links to East Liberty. Anywhere east of East Liberty on the EBA, for example, or any area which is served by one of the PXX routes, has a better transit link to East Liberty than Downtown or in fact Oakland. And there are a whole bunch more bus routes serving East Liberty (a majority of the 70s and 80s, I believe):

http://www.portauthority.org/paacmaps/images/SystemMap.jpg

It is true those people could all get to Downtown or Oakland eventually as well, but if you can save some people something like 15 minutes each way each day, plus in some cases avoid the cost of a transfer each way, that can add up to a lot of benefit and would likely increase ridership.

Further, as noted I think more office would support more amenities, which would encourage more residential as well.

Finally, I would assume East Liberty office would be a bit less expensive than Downtown or Oakland. So, that might draw some employers that would otherwise end up somewhere with less walking/biking/transit potential than East Liberty.

I thought about this more overnight, and here are the basic issues I have with turning East Liberty into a major office nexus (or really anywhere outside of Downtown/Oakland within the city).

First, people often choose their living space based upon a short commute. This is probably more true for apartments than houses, as an apartment is almost always a short-term commitment. In contrast, people much less frequently have the ability to choose a job based upon having a short commute. Indeed, in many cases when a new office opens up, it is not a startup or a new branch, but a relocation within a metro area - which will obviously bring people with it who work all across the region.

Related to this, while East Liberty is a convenient location (especially via transit) for a large proportion of the East End, it is not for other parts of the metro - or even the city. Utilizing the transit system in these cases would often require a transfer in Downtown, which is enough of a hassle in terms of timing that few people who have cars would choose to ride rather than drive. Hence the transit utilization of any East Liberty office building will be by definition lower than in Downtown or Oakland. Since a significant portion of people will drive to work anyway, putting it immediately adjacent to a busway station will lead to less transit utilization than if an apartment was placed on the same parcel.

The bottom line is cities with polycentric job patterns are generally bad for transit planning. The more jobs that sprawl out of Greater Downtown and Oakland - even if into walkable areas like South Side or East Liberty - the less capable the transit system will be to actually get workers to their place of employment.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by TBone7281

$150M East Liberty project expected to help revitalize East End

Well I would hope so...

It's weird they are having the "official" unveiling now, because it's been functional for months, and certain portions of it (like the bike cage) were still off limits and incomplete last I checked.

For the life of me, I can't tell what the larger, white shelter near Penn Avenue is for. It's not situated in such a way that it makes sense as a local bus shelter. Perhaps it's for special events?

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I thought about this more overnight, and here are the basic issues I have with turning East Liberty into a major office nexus (or really anywhere outside of Downtown/Oakland within the city).

First, people often choose their living space based upon a short commute. This is probably more true for apartments than houses, as an apartment is almost always a short-term commitment. In contrast, people much less frequently have the ability to choose a job based upon having a short commute. Indeed, in many cases when a new office opens up, it is not a startup or a new branch, but a relocation within a metro area - which will obviously bring people with it who work all across the region.

Related to this, while East Liberty is a convenient location (especially via transit) for a large proportion of the East End, it is not for other parts of the metro - or even the city. Utilizing the transit system in these cases would often require a transfer in Downtown, which is enough of a hassle in terms of timing that few people who have cars would choose to ride rather than drive. Hence the transit utilization of any East Liberty office building will be by definition lower than in Downtown or Oakland. Since a significant portion of people will drive to work anyway, putting it immediately adjacent to a busway station will lead to less transit utilization than if an apartment was placed on the same parcel.

The bottom line is cities with polycentric job patterns are generally bad for transit planning. The more jobs that sprawl out of Greater Downtown and Oakland - even if into walkable areas like South Side or East Liberty - the less capable the transit system will be to actually get workers to their place of employment.

Which is one major reason why I'd rather not see Kennametal build their HQ in Almono - which seems to be the preference on this forum. Build the corporate HQ Downtown... it makes so much more sense.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by TBone7281

So, I get where they're coming from, I guess... but what do you do? Lower the crime in a relatively prime location and add new development is going to push up demand/prices.

And there have been a lot of recent studies suggesting "gentrification" can often be to the net benefit of existing lower-income households.

That said, I think it is good they are working on building more new affordable units. I also think the proposed stop near Bakery Square would be good since it would provide more convenient Busway access to much of Larimer.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I thought about this more overnight, and here are the basic issues I have with turning East Liberty into a major office nexus (or really anywhere outside of Downtown/Oakland within the city).

First, people often choose their living space based upon a short commute. This is probably more true for apartments than houses, as an apartment is almost always a short-term commitment. In contrast, people much less frequently have the ability to choose a job based upon having a short commute. Indeed, in many cases when a new office opens up, it is not a startup or a new branch, but a relocation within a metro area - which will obviously bring people with it who work all across the region.

Related to this, while East Liberty is a convenient location (especially via transit) for a large proportion of the East End, it is not for other parts of the metro - or even the city. Utilizing the transit system in these cases would often require a transfer in Downtown, which is enough of a hassle in terms of timing that few people who have cars would choose to ride rather than drive. Hence the transit utilization of any East Liberty office building will be by definition lower than in Downtown or Oakland. Since a significant portion of people will drive to work anyway, putting it immediately adjacent to a busway station will lead to less transit utilization than if an apartment was placed on the same parcel.

The bottom line is cities with polycentric job patterns are generally bad for transit planning. The more jobs that sprawl out of Greater Downtown and Oakland - even if into walkable areas like South Side or East Liberty - the less capable the transit system will be to actually get workers to their place of employment.

I work in East Liberty and drive every day from the lower Northside because the Subway/Bus takes almost an hour to get there while driving only takes about 25 minutes. I feel a little guilty about that but that's like five hours a week of my life that I save.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I work in East Liberty and drive every day from the lower Northside because the Subway/Bus takes almost an hour to get there while driving only takes about 25 minutes. I feel a little guilty about that but that's like five hours a week of my life that I save.

I'm surprised it takes you that long via transit, since despite the transfer, you have two rapid-transit systems (T and East Busway) which should mean a relatively quick commute. I suspect a lot of it is caused by the initial walk to Allegheny station, but I would think you really wouldn't have much of a wait for a P1 at Steel Plaza at all.

Still, this highlights my point. We should double down on employment density, not spread it around, if we want to raise transit utilization. At least until automation starts eliminating both the need to drive and much of the need to work.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm surprised it takes you that long via transit, since despite the transfer, you have two rapid-transit systems (T and East Busway) which should mean a relatively quick commute. I suspect a lot of it is caused by the initial walk to Allegheny station, but I would think you really wouldn't have much of a wait for a P1 at Steel Plaza at all.

Still, this highlights my point. We should double down on employment density, not spread it around, if we want to raise transit utilization. At least until automation starts eliminating both the need to drive and much of the need to work.

I've waited as long as 20 minutes for a P1 at Steel Plaza and yes that combination involves three walks; one at either end and one in the middle. It's actually marginally faster to take the 16 and 77 combination than the T/P1 even though it doesn't use the busway.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I've waited as long as 20 minutes for a P1 at Steel Plaza and yes that combination involves three walks; one at either end and one in the middle. It's actually marginally faster to take the 16 and 77 combination than the T/P1 even though it doesn't use the busway.

The P1 can be quite weird, because it seems to come very infrequently certain times of day, then at other times you will literally see one stop every three minutes. It's not my regular bus though, but one I only take when I am bringing my bike back uphill.

[Urbana]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Which is one major reason why I'd rather not see Kennametal build their HQ in Almono - which seems to be the preference on this forum. Build the corporate HQ Downtown... it makes so much more sense.

As much as I love downtown, it is not appropriate for a company that will be involved so heavily in R&D.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by eschaton

First, people often choose their living space based upon a short commute. This is probably more true for apartments than houses, as an apartment is almost always a short-term commitment. In contrast, people much less frequently have the ability to choose a job based upon having a short commute. Indeed, in many cases when a new office opens up, it is not a startup or a new branch, but a relocation within a metro area - which will obviously bring people with it who work all across the region.

I think we need to view this very long term--the development pattern in East Liberty will likely last for many decades, and in that time there will be more than enough cycling of East Liberty workers to allow people to move to places with convenient access to East Liberty.

Related to this, while East Liberty is a convenient location (especially via transit) for a large proportion of the East End, it is not for other parts of the metro - or even the city. Utilizing the transit system in these cases would often require a transfer in Downtown, which is enough of a hassle in terms of timing that few people who have cars would choose to ride rather than drive. Hence the transit utilization of any East Liberty office building will be by definition lower than in Downtown or Oakland.

So first, I am actually not at all sure that transit access is better to Oakland specifically, versus Downtown. Oakland as yet has no actual rapid transit link, and is therefore a pain to get to from much of the transit footprint. [Edit: by the way, it is not just parts of the East End of the City that has better transit access to East Liberty--it is a big portion of the overall transit system extending out into the suburbs.]

Second, I think this argument proves too much. No doubt Downtown is the best single place for transit access in the metro area, but not every single new office unit to come over the next couple decades can be located in Downtown--there is not enough vacant land, and Downtown would be too expensive anyway for many possible employers. So, there will in fact be lots of new office space being built outside of Downtown in coming years.

And once you start thinking about locations other than Downtown to build new office space, then Downtown East Liberty starts looking as good or better than most possible locations from a transit perspective.

Since a significant portion of people will drive to work anyway, putting it immediately adjacent to a busway station will lead to less transit utilization than if an apartment was placed on the same parcel.

Undoubtedly some of the people living in East Liberty apartments are also going to drive to work rather than take transit.

Generally, I'm really not at all sure you can guarantee more apartments will always mean more transit use than more office, given that there are in fact a lot of people who would save a lot of time and/or money if they could use transit to access a job in East Liberty versus many other locations. And again, I would suggest you also have to factor in walking and biking commutes--which some of the East Liberty apartment dwellers could have if there were more office space in East Liberty.

The bottom line is cities with polycentric job patterns are generally bad for transit planning.

That seems inaccurate to me. The highest transit usage in the United States by far is in the NYC/NJ area, and there are many, many different job centers within that area, with the major ones typically having their own transit nodes. Next I believe is the Bay Area--same deal. A close third would be the DC area--same deal again.

And I think we need to keep in mind that ultimately, the East End of Pittsburgh is a small place. East Liberty in particular is only about 4 miles from Downtown--that is about the distance between the Financial District and Midtown in Manhattan.

So the idea there would be secondary jobs clusters around transit nodes that sort of distance from the main CBD is not at all innovative--that is how in fact the vast majority of cities with robust transit systems work.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I work in East Liberty and drive every day from the lower Northside because the Subway/Bus takes almost an hour to get there while driving only takes about 25 minutes. I feel a little guilty about that but that's like five hours a week of my life that I save.

This is really more a sign of how screwed up our transit system has become than anything fundamentally wrong with locating some offices on transit nodes like Downtown East Liberty. Specifically, we deliberately turned away from having rapid transit access into the actual heart of the North Side that would connect smoothly with rapid transit that goes into the East End when the Spine Line got turned into the North Shore Connector.

Not to get too far afield, but this is part of the point of the aerial gondola system I sketched out. The actual distance from the North Side to Penn Station and Steel Plaza is quite short, so you don't actually need a superfast top speed to provide convenient access to those transit junctions. Instead, the less-than-one-minute wait time of an aerial gondola system would provide you with a very reliable first link to the greater transit system. Combined with effective real time tracking on the P1, and a typical trip time from walking into a North Side gondola station to arrival at the East Liberty Transit Center could in fact be around 25 minutes or less (it is 7 minutes from Penn Station to East Liberty on a P1, and the gondola should take around 10 minutes give or take to get to Penn Station from the North Avenue stations I proposed, which leaves plenty of time for a transfer).

[BrianTH]

So the Tiny House project was in fact a bust due to cost overruns:

http://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/g...ce-tag-than-expected/Content?oid=1861042

However, as that article indicates, it was probably a worthwhile experiment anyway because it really underscored all the costs and difficulties involved in building on vacant lots like this (regardless of the size of the house). That is likely important information to keep in mind as we contemplate all sorts of related issues (how much we should invest in property stabilization versus demolition; how the proposed land bank could and should work; what realistic prospects there are for affordable housing through different channels; and so on).

[BrianTH]

Nice writeup on the bar in the Hotel Indigo:

http://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/wallaces-tap-room-rethinks-the-hotel-bar/Content?oid=1861099