The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[TorontoDrew]

I was watching some local federal debates last night. I find them funny as the parties like to hide some of their more useless candidates in riding's they know they won't win. I think it was Scarborough Guildwood where the PC candidate said he would fight for a subway in his riding and not support LRT's or Trolly's in his area. That term Trolly is still sticking around from the Ford years. Gahhh! Politicians should only be allowed to fund transit that has been determined by studies as appropriate and most needed. Not by what will get them votes. It's fools like that man that have kept the TTC's DRL as nothing more then an acronym for decades now.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

I was watching some local federal debates last night. I find them funny as the parties like to hide some of their more useless candidates in riding's they know they won't win. I think it was Scarborough Guildwood where the PC candidate said he would fight for a subway in his riding and not support LRT's or Trolly's in his area. That term Trolly is still sticking around from the Ford years. Gahhh! Politicians should only be allowed to fund transit that has been determined by studies as appropriate and most needed. Not by what will get them votes. It's fools like that man that have kept the TTC's DRL as nothing more then an acronym for decades now.

Yes, politicians can do enormous damage by flip-flopping on transit plans setting back progress for decades. We have seen this in both Toronto and Ottawa. Thankfully, we are seeing some politicians who do want to get some things done on their watch.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

The STM is installing new signage in 17 of it's Metro stations by 2020. I like it, it looks much more modern!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig4Z6EL_KU4

Nicely done. Seems very well thought out.

[swimmer_spe]

why no expansion on the w c e

In 1967, Go transit started the Lakeshore line. Less than 10 years later, 1974, it opened up what is now the Kitchener line. The next line, The Richmond Hill line opened in 1978. In 1981, the Milton line opened. A year later, the last 2 lines, the Barrie and Stouffville lines opened.

Most of the Go lines have been extended from their original lengths.

The AMT, in Montreal started with 2 lines in 1996. In less than 20 years, they now have 6 lines.

In 1995, the West Coast Express started running to Mission. Since then, the line has never been extended. Also, no new lines have been added. The Skytrain is not a commuter line.

With BC and Vancouver being touted as a green place, why have they not added more lines? Most of the Lower Mainland has lots or rail lines. It is not busier than Montreal or the GTA. In fact, the MacMillan Yard in Vaughan is the busiest in Canada.

So, why have the other systems grown yet the WCE is still where it was 20 years ago?

[Rico Rommheim]

Where would you put a new WCE line?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

why no expansion on the w c e

In 1967, Go transit started the Lakeshore line. Less than 10 years later, 1974, it opened up what is now the Kitchener line. The next line, The Richmond Hill line opened in 1978. In 1981, the Milton line opened. A year later, the last 2 lines, the Barrie and Stouffville lines opened.

Most of the Go lines have been extended from their original lengths.

The AMT, in Montreal started with 2 lines in 1996. In less than 20 years, they now have 6 lines.

In 1995, the West Coast Express started running to Mission. Since then, the line has never been extended. Also, no new lines have been added. The Skytrain is not a commuter line.

With BC and Vancouver being touted as a green place, why have they not added more lines? Most of the Lower Mainland has lots or rail lines. It is not busier than Montreal or the GTA. In fact, the MacMillan Yard in Vaughan is the busiest in Canada.
So, why have the other systems grown yet the WCE is still where it was 20 years ago?

I think part of it is that the Skytrain stretches so far and covers more of the metro area than the rapid transit lines of Toronto and Montreal cover of theirs. The Skytrain rapid transit is about 70km serving a metropolitain pop. of about 2.4 million, while Montreal's system is about the same length serving a metropolitain pop. of over 4 million and Toronto rapid transit being also about 70km while the GTA has over 6 million people. So Greater Montreal and Toronto have more areas that need commuter train service. And of course GO reaches population centres not even in the GTA, and services the Golden Horsehoe which has a larger population still.

[Nouvellecosse]

Not only that, but the geography is different too. In Montreal and Toronto, there are commuter rail connections to nearby satellite communities that are physically separated from the main built up urban and suburban area. Georgetown, Kitchener, St. Jerome, Barrie, Mascouche, Mont Saint-Hilaire, and Milton would all be examples. Vancouver doesn't have as many such areas due to being hemmed in by mountains and water.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Where would you put a new WCE line?

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Not only that, but the geography is different too. In Montreal and Toronto, there are commuter rail connections to nearby satellite communities that are physically separated from the main built up urban and suburban area. Georgetown, Kitchener, St. Jerome, Barrie, Mascouche, Mont Saint-Hilaire, and Milton would all be examples. Vancouver doesn't have as many such areas due to being hemmed in by mountains and water.

Why not have one through Surrey out to Abbotsford? Another line could go out towards Squamish. Another out to White Rock. They could add a few km of track and bring it to the Ferry Terminal.

[GlassCity]

Commuter rail expansion in Vancouver keep getting brought up here, but I think it's just not a priority at all right now. It would be nice, sure. But things like a line to UBC through Broadway and Surrey lines are much more pressing issues than a train to Abbotsford. They just got their first express bus to Metro Vancouver half a year ago and it seems to be doing okay. I'd love to see a train going there one day, but for now I think there are way too many projects that need the funding first. More commuter rail in Vancouver is more of a want than a need.

[eemy]

It's also my understanding that employment in Vancouver is much less central than Montreal or Toronto.

[Beedok]

I do wonder if GO Transit could create a light commuter rail system for some areas. Us something like the Confederation Line trains in Ottawa. Connecting KWC to the west GTA or Brantford to the GTHA with lower capacity lines or something.

I dunno, just an idea.

[Aylmer]

I think you mean the Trillium Line (Light diesel trains like you see in the S-Bahn networks in Germany). The Confederation Line uses low-floor LRT vehicles like the Eglington Crosstown.

For that to happen, our rail safety standards would have to be amended to allow for these lighter vehicles to operate on level crossings or perhaps even shared tracks (which would require massive signaling upgrades which I think should happen anyways, imo). As I've surely stated before, I think that the rules should definitely be changed to allow for much more affordable urban and interurban rail transit in small and medium sized cities like KWC, Halifax, Winnipeg, etc.

Super high crash resistance requirements might sound like a good idea, but it makes passenger rail almost impossible to set up and doesn't necessarily even make it safer for passengers (our safety codes emphasize resistance to deformation in a crash whereas European standards emphasize passenger safety, thus allowing for crumple and deformation zones in the train to soften the crash).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Commuter rail expansion in Vancouver keep getting brought up here, but I think it's just not a priority at all right now. It would be nice, sure. But things like a line to UBC through Broadway and Surrey lines are much more pressing issues than a train to Abbotsford. They just got their first express bus to Metro Vancouver half a year ago and it seems to be doing okay. I'd love to see a train going there one day, but for now I think there are way too many projects that need the funding first. More commuter rail in Vancouver is more of a want than a need.

Clearly you have never tried to drive, or take the Skytrain during peak hours.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...in-canada-new-study-on-congestion-claims

Worst in Canada, third worst in North America after Los Angeles and Mexico City.

http://www.tomtom.com/en_ca/trafficindex/#/list

And... it is the 20th worst in the world.

This sounds like Commuter Rail for Vancouver is not a want, but a need.

[ssiguy]

Considering Vancouver being a very important sea port, the city has surprisingly small rail infrastructure and most of the bridges are old and the rail lines have very little grade separation.

Most of the rail lines run in the valley and there are no corridors with more than 2 tracks. As in all things, Vancouver and BC has never been big on transportation infrastructure.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Clearly you have never tried to drive, or take the Skytrain during peak hours.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...in-canada-new-study-on-congestion-claims

Worst in Canada, third worst in North America after Los Angeles and Mexico City.

http://www.tomtom.com/en_ca/trafficindex/#/list

And... it is the 20th worst in the world.

This sounds like Commuter Rail for Vancouver is not a want, but a need.

TomTom's methodology is completely flawed, but even ignoring that there are better ways to curb congestion than commuter rail. It would be much cheaper to finally put in those bus lanes on Highway 1 for the express bus for example if that's the portion you're worried about. I take the SkyTrain all the time in peak hours, and used to drive through the wonder that is the Massey Tunnel in peak hours as well. But commuter rail would be overkill right now when transit corridors like Broadway are suffocating.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Considering Vancouver being a very important sea port, the city has surprisingly small rail infrastructure and most of the bridges are old and the rail lines have very little grade separation.

Most of the rail lines run in the valley and there are no corridors with more than 2 tracks. As in all things, Vancouver and BC has never been big on transportation infrastructure.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2798711&postcount=8

That looks like a lot of rail infrastructure.

Many of GO lines are single track some or most of the way. Start with something and build from there.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

TomTom's methodology is completely flawed, but even ignoring that there are better ways to curb congestion than commuter rail. It would be much cheaper to finally put in those bus lanes on Highway 1 for the express bus for example if that's the portion you're worried about. I take the SkyTrain all the time in peak hours, and used to drive through the wonder that is the Massey Tunnel in peak hours as well. But commuter rail would be overkill right now when transit corridors like Broadway are suffocating.

It is not just the Trans Can. It is the entire road network. The GVA does not have much in the way of freeways. At least, not like Toronto and Montreal. Buses have to sit in that congestion and do not carry as much. With GO, many of the stations become transit hubs where local transit brings people from the subdivisions to the station for them to take the train down.

GO is owned by the Province. TTC, for example is owned by the city of Toronto. The projects done by the TTC does not matter to the projects that GO is doing. Where possible, where lines cross, they put a station, such as the current Spadina extension.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2798711&postcount=8

It is not just the Trans Can. It is the entire road network. The GVA does not have much in the way of freeways. At least, not like Toronto and Montreal. Buses have to sit in that congestion and do not carry as much. With GO, many of the stations become transit hubs where local transit brings people from the subdivisions to the station for them to take the train down.

GO is owned by the Province. TTC, for example is owned by the city of Toronto. The projects done by the TTC does not matter to the projects that GO is doing. Where possible, where lines cross, they put a station, such as the current Spadina extension.

Well if you're worried about the entire road network, I'd again argue that SkyTrain expansion would do more to help it. Expanded rapid transit in both the city (Broadway) and the suburbs (Surrey) would do a lot to relieve it I think. Much more than a commuter rail line would. I do think commuter rail will be needed in within the next few decades, but there are other, more useful things we can do for now.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I think you mean the Trillium Line (Light diesel trains like you see in the S-Bahn networks in Germany). The Confederation Line uses low-floor LRT vehicles like the Eglington Crosstown.

For that to happen, our rail safety standards would have to be amended to allow for these lighter vehicles to operate on level crossings or perhaps even shared tracks (which would require massive signaling upgrades which I think should happen anyways, imo). As I've surely stated before, I think that the rules should definitely be changed to allow for much more affordable urban and interurban rail transit in small and medium sized cities like KWC, Halifax, Winnipeg, etc.

Super high crash resistance requirements might sound like a good idea, but it makes passenger rail almost impossible to set up and doesn't necessarily even make it safer for passengers (our safety codes emphasize resistance to deformation in a crash whereas European standards emphasize passenger safety, thus allowing for crumple and deformation zones in the train to soften the crash).

D'oh. Yes. I was so used to just calling it the O-train, and then the Confederation stop on the Trillium Line messed me up. Yes, I meant the Trillium line.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most of the Lower Mainland has lots or rail lines. It is not busier than Montreal or the GTA. In fact, the MacMillan Yard in Vaughan is the busiest in Canada.

True, but there's no GO service in that yard or on the CN mainline it's part of. Freight has largely abandoned most of the rail lines that feed into downtown, and that's where GO service is the strongest.

Toronto is still weak in local mass transit. There was next to no meaningful expansion for a generation, and despite the billions being spent now, urgent projects like the DRL are still a question mark.

[miketoronto]

Is commuter rail really the best use of funding?
Commuter rail, in the North American context, does very little to make transit a viable option outside of peak commuting times. Because it usually only operates at those times.