Canada Election 2015

[Deepstar]

I agree with you. I've always been liberal minded and always a liberal voter, but I don't want to see the Niqab or Burka worn be public servants on the job. Sorry if this offends people, but I agree with top dog. Faces of public servants should be seen. I don't think it's too much to ask. It's a job requirement issue not a personal freedom issue.

Originally Posted by topdog

I'm of mixed feelings on that one. While I think people should have the choice to wear what they want in their personal life, I don't believe the Niqab should be worn in public jobs. Just my opinion, but I think people should have their faces exposed if doing public work. the head scarf is fine, but the niqab or burka? No.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Chorduroy

Do you think that the niqab as required by certain religions was originally a woman's idea? Serious question.

Serious question perhaps, but not one that's relevant to the debate. The debate isn't whether or not we feel the women are making a good decision, but whether or not it's the government's place to decide for them and take away their right to decide for themselves.

I mean, just imagine a "hypothetical' society with gender biased laws based on cultural and religious vestiges that force a woman to keep her nipples covered at all times even in situations where men aren't required to. People of course would be in an uproar over this blatant oppression that has women subjected to outdated rules that treat parts of her body as a fetishized sexual object that must be hidden in public under fear of arrest. Once they were successful in having the laws repealed, everyone seems happy and most women no longer cover their nipples in situations in which men don't. But some people complain that certain women choose to keep their nipples covered! Obviously they're being oppressed and pressured by their families, religion, or male spouses to adhere to these archaic, anti-feminine traditions. So they decide to pass a law banning a woman's nipples from being covered in official situations in which men's nipples aren't.

So now, not only have they achieved the first victory is women's liberation, they've gone on to liberate women even further by disallowing them to cover their nipples even if they want to!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Yawn that runs into circular nonsense, I'd argue westerners are just as oppressed by their beliefs in the superiority of their own "progressive ideals"

Well, I have my own views on western progressive ideals and how desirable they are, but I wouldn't dare impose them on other countries and societies.

But that said I do know what I prefer for my own country (or any society that I would choose to live in), and I am definitely entitled to those views.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Comments like these just boggle my mind. No matter how many intelligent well-spoken veiled women they can put out as spokespeople who claim it is their "free choice", you won't convince me that the vast majority of veiled women aren't dressed that way out of oppression, threats, coercion, brainwashing, etc.

There is a reason why almost all feminist women who are of the Muslim faith or of Muslim origin are strongly against this.

Their struggle is more of an uphill one (in addition to being dangerous in some cases) than anything most of us could possibly imagine. I for one am not going to let them down for some dubious Canadian collective "feel good" reasons.

So no matter how many times a woman comes to you and intelligently indicates her preferences and desires for the right to make her own decision, you will still be convinced that you don't need to listen to her and that women aren't capable of deciding for themselves and therefore must have someone more competent such as yourself to make the choice for them. That's the most anti-feminist, feminist statement I've ever heard.

[topdog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, yes and yes. A close relative of mine is responsible for a battered women's shelter. They have a lot of trouble getting women from certain communities (not just Muslims BTW) - whom they know are subject to serious abuses - to make the break.

Many women endure and stay under the yolk of an abusive domestic partner and family situation because they can't imagine life outside of it. In many cases it's almost a repeat of the old "keep 'em barefoot and pregnant so they can't run away" type of scenario...

Even the Muslim women that I know and work with who are born and raised in Canada are still under a significant amount of control from their families. Most don't socialize outside if their family. Moving to a shelter would be a big deal for them, let alone a women from another culture and language background.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

So no matter how many times a woman comes to you and intelligently indicates her preferences and desires for the right to make her own decision, you will still be convinced that you don't need to listen to her and that women aren't capable of deciding for themselves and therefore must have someone more competent such as yourself to make the choice for them. That's the most anti-feminist, feminist statement I've ever heard.

You'd "have" me (so to speak) with this argument if I were opposed to women wearing the burqa/niqab in public like walking down the street. (As is the case in a handful of countries.)

My opposition is only related to our public institutions giving this kind of thing a tacit stamp of approval by welcoming it with open arms...

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by topdog

I'm of mixed feelings on that one. While I think people should have the choice to wear what they want in their personal life, I don't believe the Niqab should be worn in public jobs. Just my opinion, but I think people should have their faces exposed if doing public work. the head scarf is fine, but the niqab or burka? No.

In don't think people should be wearing it if it's going to adversely affect their ability to perform the job. But in a tangible, concrete way such as safety issues of course. Not something flimsy like "it doesn't convey the type of imagine that the company is trying to project".

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You'd "have" me (so to speak) with this argument if I were opposed to women wearing the burqa/niqab in public like walking down the street. (As is the case in a handful of countries.)

My opposition is only related to our public institutions giving this kind of thing a tacit stamp of approval by welcoming it with open arms...

But why would we be interpreting simple acceptance of a woman's choice to do something (that doesn't have any apparent safety or functional concerns) as a form of endorsement? I don't see neutrality as endorsement or approval.

[RWin]

Originally Posted by Deepstar

Faces of public servants should be seen. I don't think it's too much to ask.

The phone is not an option then.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by topdog

Even the Muslim women that I know and work with who are born and raised in Canada are still under a significant amount of control from their families. Most don't socialize outside if their family. Moving to a shelter would be a big deal for them, let alone a women from another culture and language background.

I would assume it's not the case with the women who work with you, but in many cultures/religions the women aren't permitted to speak with people (especially not men) outside their culture/religion. It's not just the Muslim community BTW.

Canada's nominee for the Oscar for best foreign film this year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obC5MAJkm-w

[flar]

All of this niqab stuff is a distraction, don't let it get to you. It's designed to get you hot under the collar. I think niqabs are backward and oppressive too, I don't like what they stand for. But I believe in freedom more.

However, at the end of the day, how many people are walking around with niqabs and burqas? Not many. And essentially none of them work for the public service, and none of them are school teachers and it's only come up as an issue at citizenship ceremonies a couple times.

In any case, this has undercurrents of islamophobia, hate and fear, and no good can come of these base emotions. Upon reflection, I see even in myself some thoughts and emotions that I don't like. Already, people have been assaulted. We need to stop letting Conservatives frame the debate this way and have a broader discussion about the merits of multiculturalism in Canada. There is no doubt we need to look at the facts about integration of immigrants and refugees in Canada, but we need to do it in a more constructive and positive way.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But why would we be interpreting simple acceptance of a woman's choice to do something (that doesn't have any apparent safety or functional concerns) as a form of endorsement? I don't see neutrality as endorsement or approval.

It's not really totally neutral though. It's an accommodation or at least an "exception".

As I said way back, I see the niqab/burqa kind of like smoking. Sure people can do it if they want to but our government and society shouldn't encourage it by rolling out the welcome mat for it.

[CanSpice]

I don't think that Christians should be allowed to wear crosses if they're public servants, because that's giving tacit approval for their religion, and Canada's supposed to be secular.

I don't think that Jews should be allowed to wear yarmulkes if they're public servants, because that's giving tacit approval for their religion, and Canada's supposed to be secular.

I don't think that Sikhs should be allowed to wear turbans if they're public servants, because that's giving tacit approval for their religion, and Canada's supposed to be secular.

This is tyranny of the masses, and I'm really disappointed to see so many people falling for it. The right to practice one's religion is enshrined in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and that right has been upheld by the Supreme Court. I don't understand why so many people are so adamantly supporting religious discrimination, when it flies in the face of what I thought were Canadian values.

[Aylmer]

A lot of people have been declaring how they wouldn't want to be served by someone wearing a Niqab or a Burka. Me too.

But I think that we're overlooking an issue which is just as urgent and existent: Unicorns in the public service.



I would just like to make it clear that I would feel very uncomfortable to be served by a unicorn. A horse, maybe, but I think that a unicorn just takes it too far - in addition to being a serious security risk, a giant horn just sticking out from its forehead is a blatant symbol of phallic innuendo and patriarchal dominance which just does not have its place in a contemporary Canada, if indeed it ever did. In fact, If the government of Canada really is in favour of the equality between men and women, I think that we should have legislation outlawing unicorns from being employed by the public service.

Did you know that there are almost as many unicorns working in the public service as Niqab-wearing women? I mean, I've never seen one, but I'm certain that they exist somewhere and surveys have shown that over 90% of people are deeply offended by the mere prospect of having to testify in front of a unicorn or a Niqab-wearing human if ever it did happen. WHICH IT COULD without proper legislation.
So let's nip this in the bud: YES to a ban to unicorns and Niqabs in the public service.


EDIT: You know when I said that I had never seen one? Well, I JUST FOUND PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE! It's a picture on the internet, so that pretty much proves that it does indeed really happen and, by logical extension, is a totally widespread thing which happens ALL THE TIME. This is why we must act before it's too late.

[Acajack]

What has Irshad Manji had to say on this topic? I haven't heard from her and she's usually close to these issues.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by flar

All of this niqab stuff is a distraction, don't let it get to you. It's designed to get you hot under the collar. I think niqabs are backward and oppressive too, I don't like what they stand for. But I believe in freedom more.

However, at the end of the day, how many people are walking around with niqabs and burqas? Not many. And essentially none of them work for the public service, and none of them are school teachers and it's only come up as an issue at citizenship ceremonies a couple times.

In any case, this has undercurrents of islamophobia, hate and fear, and no good can come of these base emotions. Upon reflection, I see even in myself some thoughts and emotions that I don't like. Already, people have been assaulted. We need to stop letting Conservatives frame the debate this way and have a broader discussion about the merits of multiculturalism in Canada. There is no doubt we need to look at the facts about integration of immigrants and refugees in Canada, but we need to do it in a more constructive and positive way.

As I have said many times before, on Oct. 19 I will be voting for a party that does not share my view on the niqab/burqa issue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

A lot of people have been declaring how they wouldn't want to be served by someone wearing a Niqab or a Burka. Me too.

But I think that we're overlooking an issue which is just as urgent and existent: Unicorns in the public service.



I would just like to make it clear that I would feel very uncomfortable to be served by a unicorn. A horse, maybe, but I think that a unicorn just takes it too far - in addition to being a serious security risk, a giant horn just sticking out from its forehead is a blatant symbol of phallic innuendo and patriarchal dominance which just does not have its place in a contemporary Canada, if indeed it ever did. In fact, If the government of Canada really is in favour of the equality between men and women, I think that we should have legislation outlawing unicorns from being employed by the public service.

Did you know that there are almost as many unicorns working in the public service as Niqab-wearing women? I mean, I've never seen one, but I'm certain that they exist somewhere and surveys have shown that over 90% of people are deeply offended by the mere prospect of having to testify in front of a unicorn or a Niqab-wearing human if ever it did happen. WHICH IT COULD without proper legislation.
So let's nip this in the bud: YES to a ban to unicorns and Niqabs in the public service.

Very funny. Given our changing demographics and the precedent set by virtue of this case, you will begin to see veiled women in the public service and positions of authority some time in the near future, even if there are none at the moment.

[topdog]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

In don't think people should be wearing it if it's going to adversely affect their ability to perform the job. But in a tangible, concrete way such as safety issues of course. Not something flimsy like "it doesn't convey the type of imagine that the company is trying to project".

Safety concerns obviously. For me though, I think when dealing with a public servant face to face, you should be able to see their face, and full facial expressions. Especially important for jobs like teachers or any kind of job where they are speaking a fair bit.

For example, I would never want my child to be taught be a women wearing a niqab or burka...or any man or woman with the face covered. I would request to have my child moved, and I shouldn't have to do that.

You also have to consider the fellow employees and the uncomfortableness of working with someone who has their face covered.

If it's a private company or business, then I don't care what the people wear. they could dress up like a mummy for all I care.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Very funny. Given our changing demographics and the precedent set by virtue of this case, you will begin to see veiled women in the public service and positions of authority some time in the near future, even if there are none at the moment.

Can you imagine if all 100 Niqab-wearing women of them got a job in the public service? Pandemonium!

And soon enough you'll have unicorns pulling you over for traffic tickets and teaching (or indoctrinating??) your children...

[SignalHillHiker]

Just looking over my voter information card.

My poll is literally across the street. Just curious how far you guys are from yours? Anybody have one really inconvenient?