Canada Election 2015

[kwoldtimer]

I see that Trudeau announced yesterday that, if elected, the Liberals would ratify the UN Arms Trade Treaty. A very good move that would be a modest step toward reviving Canada's international status.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It is a wedge issue intended to make it look like those are the opposing options. It plays well with the herd, who have somehow wrongly turned it in to some sort of existential crisis. As long as the rule of law remains a pan-Canadian value, niqabs are moot as the courts have spoken.

You're correct of course. I suspect though that many people won't be so glib in the near-future when this precedent is used (as it can and will be) and niqab-wearing police officers and public school teachers start showing up here and there across the country.

[Chorduroy]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I still find it odd how the issue is seen by some as a women's right's issue. I mean, people are seriously suggesting that we'd be giving women more rights by taking away their right to choose? Seems like the literal definition of irony...

Do you think that the niqab as required by certain religions was originally a woman's idea? Serious question.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're correct of course. I suspect though that many people won't be so glib in the near-future when this precedent is used (as it can and will be) and niqab-wearing police officers and public school teachers start showing up here and there across the country.

And I remain at a loss as to why anyone would care. I believe that there has been at least one case of a niqab wearing teacher (or perhaps teacher's aide) in Canada and it has posed no problems that I'm aware of.

Sometimes I feel like I sound like I'm promoting the niqab, which is definitely not the case. Everyone, including women who wear the niqab or burka, knows that Canadians frown on the practice. Facilities for oppressed women are available for niqab wearers, as they are for other oppressed women. Were a Canadian government able to legally ban the niqab (a big if), I would readily accept that outcome. I am horrified, however, by the way this has been manipulated as an election issue and by the ugly undercurrent that this has encouraged.

[topdog]

Originally Posted by Chorduroy

Do you think that the niqab as required by certain religions was originally a woman's idea? Serious question.

It might have been a thousand years ago, but it wouldn't be the choice of the vast majority of women. I still assert that the niqab will die out on its own anyway, as would other 'conservative' aspects of the religion. People are people, and in the end, very few women would want to spend their life covered up like that.
I work for a company owned by Muslims, and have a good idea how many of the younger 2nd generation ones think. The women that are born here don't even wear a hijab (head scarf). The ones that do are the ones who are new to Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

. Facilities for oppressed women are available for niqab wearers, as they are for other oppressed women. .

You know I always respect your views, but isn't that a bit pollyanna-esque a comment, given the family, community and social pressures involved and that we are all aware of?

[topdog]

I'm of mixed feelings on that one. While I think people should have the choice to wear what they want in their personal life, I don't believe the Niqab should be worn in public jobs. Just my opinion, but I think people should have their faces exposed if doing public work. the head scarf is fine, but the niqab or burka? No.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And I remain at a loss as to why anyone would care. I believe that there has been at least one case of a niqab wearing teacher (or perhaps teacher's aide) in Canada and it has posed no problems that I'm aware of.

Sometimes I feel like I sound like I'm promoting the niqab, which is definitely not the case. Everyone, including women who wear the niqab or burka, knows that Canadians frown on the practice. Facilities for oppressed women are available for niqab wearers, as they are for other oppressed women. Were a Canadian government able to legally ban the niqab (a big if), I would readily accept that outcome. I am horrified, however, by the way this has been manipulated as an election issue and by the ugly undercurrent that this has encouraged.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am starting to get a bit hot under the collar with the way some are automatically equating opposition to the niqab in official settings with racism and even islamophobia.

And for me personnally, I am not really "supporting the Conservatives" on this one. We just have a similar view. Their motivations may also be different from mine.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/raheel-raza/niqab-burka-ban-canada_b_8189112.html

Agreed, I actually think this is one of the rare issues where I think the opposition are not misguided, etc etc, but just FUCKING MORONS!!!!!.

Allowing one to conceal ones face and identity is a precedent in our society, it's not a minor issue, and it really shows how incompetent people are with the most basic of logic.

I actually think there cool, and I couldnt' give a flying fuck about Canadian culture in this respect.


What I can't fucking stand is such an absurd consideration to be made without thinking of the long term consequences.

If men started wearing "the ski mask" there would be a politcal meltdown however liberals of the worst variety aren't able to make a basic decision.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You know I always respect your views, but isn't that a bit pollyanna-esque a comment, given the family, community and social pressures involved and that we are all aware of?

I don't think so. I don't see a vast difference between the pressures on an oppressed niqab wearer and a "regular" abused woman. On the other hand, I am doubtful about the presumption that niqab wearing Canadians are necessarily "oppressed". The bulk of what we see in the media, at least, seems to indicate the opposite.

[topdog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You know I always respect your views, but isn't that a bit pollyanna-esque a comment, given the family, community and social pressures involved and that we are all aware of?

Exactly. It's not as simple as a Muslim woman going to the shelter. Her world isn't the Canadian government and its social programs, it's her family, and/or her husband's family. Language and cultural aspects are a big factor.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I still find it odd how the issue is seen by some as a women's right's issue. I mean, people are seriously suggesting that we'd be giving women more rights by taking away their right to choose? Seems like the literal definition of irony...

Comments like these just boggle my mind. No matter how many intelligent well-spoken veiled women they can put out as spokespeople who claim it is their "free choice", you won't convince me that the vast majority of veiled women aren't dressed that way out of oppression, threats, coercion, brainwashing, etc.

There is a reason why almost all feminist women who are of the Muslim faith or of Muslim origin are strongly against this.

Their struggle is more of an uphill one (in addition to being dangerous in some cases) than anything most of us could possibly imagine. I for one am not going to let them down for some dubious Canadian collective "feel good" reasons.

[topdog]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't think so. I don't see a vast difference between the pressures on an oppressed niqab wearer and a "regular" abused woman. On the other hand, I am doubtful about the presumption that niqab wearing Canadians are necessarily "oppressed". The bulk of what we see in the media, at least, seems to indicate the opposite.

There are vast differences. Language and cultural differences are huge compared to the average Canadian woman that's being abused.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Comments like these just boggle my mind. No matter how many intelligent well-spoken veiled women they can put out as spokespeople who claim it is their "free choice", you won't convince me that the vast majority of veiled women aren't dressed that way out of oppression, threats, coercion, brainwashing, etc.

Your breaking down the wall of logic and legality, why people choose to do it isn't no one's concern.

The point is whether concealing ones face is legally tolerable, as a rational consideration for ones beliefs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

On the other hand, I am doubtful about the presumption that niqab wearing Canadians are necessarily "oppressed".
].

Obviously they are not all oppressed. But oppressed can have multiple definitions as well.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The bulk of what we see in the media, at least, seems to indicate the opposite.

Yes, the pro-niqab, pro-burka, etc. media strategy is a (reasonably) effective one. I can see that. We can all see that.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Obviously they are not all oppressed. But oppressed can have multiple definitions as well.

.

Yawn that runs into circular nonsense, I'd argue westerners are just as oppressed by their beliefs in the superiority of their own "progressive ideals"

[kwoldtimer]

Any observations out there that don't involve fabric? One tires of this tail wagging dog aspect of the election campaign (I say this as one of many guilty parties)?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by topdog

There are vast differences. Language and cultural differences are huge compared to the average Canadian woman that's being abused.

Yes, yes and yes. A close relative of mine is responsible for a battered women's shelter. They have a lot of trouble getting women from certain communities (not just Muslims BTW) - whom they know are subject to serious abuses - to make the break.

Many women endure and stay under the yolk of an abusive domestic partner and family situation because they can't imagine life outside of it. In many cases it's almost a repeat of the old "keep 'em barefoot and pregnant so they can't run away" type of scenario...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Your breaking down the wall of logic and legality, why people choose to do it isn't no one's concern.

The point is whether concealing ones face is legally tolerable, as a rational consideration for ones beliefs.

If I understand you correctly, I think I generally agree.

I am only responding to assertions from some on here that they are all doing of their own free will, based on the public statements of a few hand-picked veiled spokeswomen.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, yes and yes. A close relative of mine is responsible for a battered women's shelter. They have a lot of trouble getting women from certain communities (not just Muslims BTW) - whom they know are subject to serious abuses - to make the break.

Many women endure and stay under the yolk of an abusive domestic partner and family situation because they can't imagine life outside of it. In many cases it's almost a repeat of the old "keep 'em barefoot and pregnant so they can't run away" type of scenario...

What the fuck does this have to do with the issue?

Your essentially lining up a prejudice, just as the people who against you are sugguesting

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Stryker

What the fuck does this have to do with the issue?

Your essentially lining up a prejudice, just as the people who against you are sugguesting

Once again, I'm just responding to assertions that have been made and that I think make no sense.