Canada Election 2015

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So, France's Front Nationale Party is both nationalist and socialist. Let's see - was there a similar party in a European neighbour about 75 years ago that caused lots of problems for the world???

Yeah, the Nazis. But you knew that. They followed the Weimar Republic.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by geotag277

While I'm no fan of the Conservatives preoccupation with ethnic-oriented divisive politics, I find it hard to fault the political reaching out to certain demographics who do not feel represented in certain issues and attempting to provide a motivation to vote a certain way through said representation. At the end of the day, that is really what we are talking about here.

It reminds me of all the hatred towards Fox News, which isn't even that old by the way. Before Fox News came along, people seem to assume that the demographics who watch Fox News didn't exist, which is absurd. The popularity and success of Fox News shows that there are large swaths of people who want to be pandered too in the manner that Fox News operates and targets.

At the end of the day, the problem is not Fox News, or that the Conservatives use these divisive issues as a political tool - as much the problem really is that there are people out there who don't agree with you, don't think the same way you do, and don't come to the same conclusions regarding these issues. You may even think they are ignorant, uneducated, and/or not qualified to vote. But the existence of these people isn't going away just because we change government, and it isn't the government's job to remove these people from the voting population by ignoring what they think or what they have to say, and no one in a democracy is judge jury and executioner for who is smart enough to vote/who is too ignorant to vote.

If you have a problem with the way large swaths of Canadians think, that's a larger issue than a government reaching out to represent them. It is not Fox News which is the "problem", it is the conditions that allow Fox News to continue to exist and be widely successful.

Agreed with this sentiment, Condescension of "liberals" is a plague of western society, not in a political sense but more so in a social sense.

[travis3000]

New Abacus poll out late last night shows a two way race for #1 in the country between Harper and Trudeau. Mulcair is back in #3.

Conservatives: 33%
Liberals: 32%
NDP: 24%

One key point is that Abacus was in the field October 5th and 6th so this is pretty fresh. The Liberals have advanced 3 points since last week, the NDP has dropped 3 points to their lowest levels since the beginning of the campaign.

In Ontario, the Liberals are leading by 7 points. In Quebec the NDP is leading by 7 points. Liberals take Atlantic Canada, Conservatives take the Prairies, and we still have a 3 way race out in BC with the Tories leading very slightly.

Seems like polls are coming into (somewhat) of an agreement here. It's a tie for first place , NDP dropping like a stone.

http://abacusdata.ca/election-2015-blue-vs-red-orange-flagging/

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

There's a reason that statistically Conservatives are less educated than progressives.

Load of crap, that's in large part because people with arts degree's etc sku the numbers. The only way this makes sense is if you consider an history major working at a call centre more educated than a foreman.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The niqab issue isn't really a left vs. right issue. At least not from where I stand. Most people I know are left or centre-left and all of them are against the niqab in official proceedings. This includes all of the feminists I know.

Agreed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Yeah, the Nazis. But you knew that. They followed the Weimar Republic.

And the freewheeling 1920s...

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Science isn't a topic, it is a philosophy about epistomology; an orderly, objective approach to developing theory, testing hypotheses with rigorous methodologies, and gathering evidence. When applied to business, it is often referred to as "evidence-based management"

Good definition.

Nothing infuriates me more, when people start talking about natural phenom, and act as if that is science.

I'm never gonna claim to be a science guy, if you don't have some formal training in philosophy and the actual methodologies of real science you really need to keep your mouth shut.

Science is a human invention, and it's limits are directly human failings.


The elephant in the room that science folks complete miss is that evidence based management is often severely lacking in the detail evidence needed to understand our intensely complex world. The greedy reductionist have dominated pulp science and it's really harming our society.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I'm over hope. Conservative majority. And still not a single candidate here.

I'm not gonna lie to you all, I'm likely if gonna turn coat back to con if we get another harper minority, I can't take hating this country so much.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It is already happening. In France, the Front National combines an anti-immigration platform with tax rises for the wealthy and welfare for the poor. This is a nationalist party. In the US, the Democrats combine international capitalism and the projection of military force (such as Obama's drone programs and Hillary Clinton's adventure in Libya) with support of social issues involving racial minorities, gay people and transgendered individuals. They are a globalist party.

If the conservatives magically loose this is bound to happen.

Canadian nationalist party makes so much sense with bloc weakened along with alberta.

[SignalHillHiker]

That won't really help much, haha.

I'm half hoping Quebec gets pissed enough to boot it. In my mind, it'll take something that grand to make people outside the city here get serious about it as an option too.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Spliff

From Statscan:

"The changing dynamics in Canadian manufacturing highlight the changes the sector is undergoing. In 2007, 10 of 21 manufacturing industries reported improved sales. Benefiting from rising global demand, the petroleum and coal products industry reported sizeable gains, which were boosted by average annual prices that increased by about 65% from 2003 to 2007. With sales of $66.7 billion, petroleum and coal products accounted for 11% of total manufacturing sales in 2007. For the first time, this industry overtook motor vehicle manufacturing, becoming second only to the food industry in total manufacturing sales."

Also, from Statscan:

"The four provinces west of Ontario accounted for 22% of total sales in Canada, up from 19% in 2003. Alberta is enjoying the impact of the petroleum and coal products industry on manufacturing sales: it leads the western provinces in sales growth. Alberta posted manufacturing sales of $65.6 billion in 2007, for its fifth successive annual increase. Alberta accounted for nearly one-half of Western Canada’s manufacturing sales"



So, Western Canada accounted for 22% of total sales from manufacturing in Canada. Edmonton, is the largest manufacturing center west of Toronto, and specializes in petrochemical products, plastics and oil processing related machinery and oil-sands equipment.

So SSIGUY, is it really just food processing? Also, why do you think people in western canada think of the auto manufacturing industry in Ontario is a "foreign concept"? What do you base this supposed public opinion on? Also, its hasn't been proven that "as goes Ontario so goes Canada." I'd argue that a healthy USA economy is more important to the whole of Canada then a healthy auto industry in Ontario. Manufacturing in Ontario has been in a decline for decades, mostly because of outsourcing to NIC and LEDCs in China, Mexico, Thailand etc, and not because of government policy in Canada, or in other MEDC countries who have lost manufactuing jobs to emerging economies. During the past 30 years, since the decline of traditional manufacturing in Canada, has Canada as a whole become poorer, and has the standard of living declined substantially? Has it gone up during this time?

Your arguments, as usual, are full of large holes.

How do you manufacture coal?

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Migs

So according to the left its ok for a Muslim woman to wear a Niqab during a citizenship ceremony because of her religious beliefs but it's not ok for a Sikh man to have an opinion about homosexuality which likely relates to his religious beliefs. Funny how that works.

You're equating a candidate believing a section of the population should be 'fixed' with a private citizen wearing an outfit?

[topdog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The niqab issue isn't really a left vs. right issue. At least not from where I stand. Most people I know are left or centre-left and all of them are against the niqab in official proceedings. This includes all of the feminists I know.

Originally Posted by Architype

I think it's the social issues (even the niqab debate) that can determine the outcome of an election. Any elected government will probably make similar economic decisions regardless of ideology.

It's surprising how one seemingly small issue can become a big one, but the issue is really about Islam and Muslims in general. Acajack is right, it's not a left vs right issue. I know people who have always been moderate and tolerant people, but are in support of the PCs on that topic. Some are still planning to vote Liberal, but have actually considered voting PC. I think Canada is in for some interesting times in the coming years.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Then how does this explain all the conservative red neck uneducated Albertans, mining their black gold. It doesn't make sense - it doesn't fit into the "national narrative".

I thought Albertans were above the national average in terms of education. Am I wrong?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

IMO the niqab issue is one of these "we're a blank slate, bring your own culture" vs "no, we actually DO have a pre-existing culture" type of situation.

It is a wedge issue intended to make it look like those are the opposing options. It plays well with the herd, who have somehow wrongly turned it in to some sort of existential crisis. As long as the rule of law remains a pan-Canadian value, niqabs are moot as the courts have spoken.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

12 days to go.

I'd be curious to hear the prediction of fellow members.

I'm still saying the Tories will win a small minority However the Liberals are making gains.

I have been consistent in saying a Conservative minority seems the most likely option but I will be very interested to see whether NDP support doesn't fall over the next week as people start to accept that the only real option to Harper Conservatism is to vote Liberal. If that happens, I could see a Liberal minority, but it still seems to me the less likely outcome. So I guess I'm waiting to see whether NDP supporters will put principle above pragmatism.

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=topdog;7189403]It's surprising how one seemingly small issue can become a big one, but the issue is really about Islam and Muslims in general. Acajack is right, it's not a left vs right issue. I know people who have always been moderate and tolerant people, but are in support of the PCs on that topic. [QUOTE]

I am starting to get a bit hot under the collar with the way some are automatically equating opposition to the niqab in official settings with racism and even islamophobia.

And for me personnally, I am not really "supporting the Conservatives" on this one. We just have a similar view. Their motivations may also be different from mine.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/raheel-raza/niqab-burka-ban-canada_b_8189112.html

[RWin]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I thought Albertans were above the national average in terms of education. Am I wrong?

I believe so. I think it was a comment with no more purpose than to divide people.

Although reading it again, there may be a sense of sarcasm in there.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by geotag277

While I'm no fan of the Conservatives preoccupation with ethnic-oriented divisive politics, I find it hard to fault the political reaching out to certain demographics who do not feel represented in certain issues and attempting to provide a motivation to vote a certain way through said representation. At the end of the day, that is really what we are talking about here.

It reminds me of all the hatred towards Fox News, which isn't even that old by the way. Before Fox News came along, people seem to assume that the demographics who watch Fox News didn't exist, which is absurd. The popularity and success of Fox News shows that there are large swaths of people who want to be pandered too in the manner that Fox News operates and targets.

At the end of the day, the problem is not Fox News, or that the Conservatives use these divisive issues as a political tool - as much the problem really is that there are people out there who don't agree with you, don't think the same way you do, and don't come to the same conclusions regarding these issues. You may even think they are ignorant, uneducated, and/or not qualified to vote. But the existence of these people isn't going away just because we change government, and it isn't the government's job to remove these people from the voting population by ignoring what they think or what they have to say, and no one in a democracy is judge jury and executioner for who is smart enough to vote/who is too ignorant to vote.

If you have a problem with the way large swaths of Canadians think, that's a larger issue than a government reaching out to represent them. It is not Fox News which is the "problem", it is the conditions that allow Fox News to continue to exist and be widely successful.

Did you hear the CBC Ideas radio show "Too Dumb for Democracy"? Very interesting episode. It starts out asking that very question of whether or not the public is sufficiently intelligent and educated to be tasked with choosing governments under the democracy system. It discusses several problems with human psychology, but ultimately concludes that the real problems are systemic in that the system exploits human cognitive weaknesses when it should be providing work arounds for the sake of preserving the integrity of the process.

Originally Posted by lio45

IMO the niqab issue is one of these "we're a blank slate, bring your own culture" vs "no, we actually DO have a pre-existing culture" type of situation.

I agree that this is a big part of the way it's viewed. I disagree that this is the correct way to view it of course. In a free society, culture should develop and evolve through affinity rather than coercion. In other words, people should influence one another by living closely together and having regular interactions and communication. But this influence and culture sharing should be done subtly and non-intrusively rather than by forcing conformity. Not only because taking the gentler, non-conformist approach is more in keeping with western values of freedom and individuality, but because when members of a society feel accepted and respected, they're less likely to recoil and self-isolate, and more likely to integrate with the rest of the community and thereby be influenced by it over time.

I still find it odd how the issue is seen by some as a women's right's issue. I mean, people are seriously suggesting that we'd be giving women more rights by taking away their right to choose? Seems like the literal definition of irony...

[topdog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am starting to get a bit hot under the collar with the way some are automatically equating opposition to the niqab in official settings with racism and even islamophobia.

And for me personnally, I am not really "supporting the Conservatives" on this one. We just have a similar view. Their motivations may also be different from mine.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/raheel-raza/niqab-burka-ban-canada_b_8189112.html

It's an interesting issue as I know many moderate Muslims, and many don't like the niqab, or other things associated with the conservative aspect of the religion, like Sharia Law for example. They, like myself don't believe it's religious, but rather cultural and associated with the country they come from. I'm not sure who they are voting for.

Myself, I don't like the niqab, but I wonder if it's better to just let it disappear on it's own. Women growing up in Canada will be used to having a choice and a say, and I am certain very few would choose to wear it in the end.