PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Outta here]

Wow , no reason to apologize to me , but thanks for the post .
It is me that should apologize for not being more aware of posting policy .
Lord knows , I am not looking to ignite a country wide war of words
involving class structures in some of the nations biggest cities .

Your job is to monitor , and it looks like you are doing a good job of it .

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

No need for an argument. I agree we should be attracting better stores when we are. I don't agree the average income or number of high earners is on par with most other cities that have department stores of the caliber we've been discussing. Or that wealth is center city is on par with the Philadelphia suburbs. Median income for a family in Gladwyne at last check was $200,000 and Villanova and Bryn Mawr not far from that (Wikipedia). Some publications have pegged average household income in Gladwyne at $331,840, though I'm not sure that's accurate. http://patch.com/pennsylvania/brynmawr/gladwyne-identified-as-no-7-richest-zip-code-in-u-s

It's been nice to see Center City crack the 6 figure mark for average income. But $107,000 is not really that much money and not enough to be spending much disposable income on the clothes sold ad Barney's and Neiman Marcus (I realize this is only an average and lower income people balance those earning much more than this).

Anyway, back to construction discussions for me, I guess.

Philadelphia as a whole? No, obviously there are still some lower income and distressed areas. Center City? Absolutely is it on par with other cities including San Francisco, Boston, Miami, DC, etc. NYC is obviously uber wealthy and there is no urban area that even compares to it. Chicago and LA have similar Average household income numbers but obviously higher populations.

For instance: San Francisco Average Household income
Nob Hill: $73,620
Downtown/Union Square: $60,543
Financial District: $84,072
Rincon Hill/South Beach: $150,945

http://www.point2homes.com/US/Neighborhood/CA/San-Francisco/North-Waterfront.html

That is around the upscale shopping district in Union Square in San Francisco.

Yes, Gladwyne's Average Household income is higher (around $220,000), but it's also a MUCH lower population. We're comparing 3,800 people here to 120,000 people in Center City.

Center City's numbers of $107,000 with Rittenhouse hitting $115,000 average household income and Society Hill hitting $156,000 are very comparable to San Francisco's core neighborhoods where all of the upscale shopping is. The difference is, San Francisco is seen in a better light, has better marketing, has better media/TV coverage, does not have the super depressed areas that North Philly has and has more tourists overall as well. However, the cost of living is MUCH higher in San Francisco than even Center City.

If Philadelphia can get the word out about the core of the city and it's upswing, I think we could attract higher end retail. ESPECIALLY smaller boutiques located in KOP.

No reason we can't have an Abercrombie, Nordstrom, Bloomingale's, Hugo Boss, Burberry, Clarks, David Yurman, Long Champ, Ted Baker, Tory Burch and White House Black Market. No reason these stores can't be in Center City. There is the ability to support these stores. Neiman Marcus? Versace? Salvatore Ferragamo? Saint Laurent? Hermes? Not yet.

Gucci and Louis Vuitton are super high end too, but if Atlantic City freaking has these stores, Center City Philadelphia should too.

[summersm343]

PS - Rittenhouse Row NEEDS a website like this. Get on it VisitPhilly.com!!!

http://unionsquareshop.com/alpha.html

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Philadelphia as a whole? No, obviously there are still some lower income and distressed areas. Center City? Absolutely is it on par with other cities including San Francisco, Boston, Miami, DC, etc. . . . . . but if Atlantic City freaking has these stores, Center City Philadelphia should too.

A lot of the high end stores in these big cities (even AC) you mention are probably intensively supported by short or long term visitors with lots of disposable income or a willingness to blow through the credit card to sustain a temporary delusion of wealth: conventioneers, tourists, gamblers, international students, expats, members of foreign families with well-located vacation houses. People who don't necessarily show up in the census.

When I've been to Boston, I'm amazed by the number of rich foreign students trolling Newberry Street, Prudential Center, and Copley Plaza. The Magnificent Mile must be 75% tourists. San Francisco and South Beach shopping areas are overrun with rich foreign kids. DC is loaded with expat elites living off government expense accounts.

Center City has made great strides, but it simply does not yet have the concentration of free-spending people you find in some of these other top tier cities. The biggest concentration around here by far is still along the Main Line, thus KOP.

Even where we could do better - by getting more conventioneers over to Walnut Street, say - we probably do a pretty lame job, in part because the convention center and big hotels are relatively remote and the shopping around there has been depressingly dismal since 1975 or so (that should be changing, which is great). I have a feeling tourists and conventioneers just don't shop much in Center City compared to their peers in Boston, Chicago, SF.

As it is, my sense is that Rittenhouse Sq is the best we can do from internally generated resident demand along with a bunch of wealthy students from Penn living off mum and dad's credit cards.

Philly needs more wealthy tourists, more wealthy students, more wealthy business expats, etc., to sustain the ultra high end retail. It also needs to get people from the Main Line who prefer KOP to take a train downtown and spend the day.

Until that happens, no Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus or Gucci or Prada is going to set up here.

[Hrytsyu]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Ok ill stop being so negative lol

While there have not been ads for Barbera, an automobile retailer, on the LIT boards, I believe your impression of the board content is that it has been "Barberaesque". And your impression is all too accurate.

These are not adverts anyone could interpret as being inspiring, cool, or urban. They are instead, "Barberaesque" clutter. Its a shame that you are correct.

[Hrytsyu]

Originally Posted by boxbot

NIMBYs will flip their lids if SLC attempted to put a department store on Rittenhouse Square.

I wouldn't qualify as a NIMBY since it is not in my back yard.

However, my empathetic nimbyism compels me to ask the question: how would the shipping component of such an establishment be managed on such a limited access site?

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Hrytsyu

I wouldn't qualify as a NIMBY since it is not in my back yard.

However, my empathetic nimbyism compels me to ask the question: how would the shipping component of such an establishment be managed on such a limited access site?

Since it's an L shaped lot and includes the empty lot on Walnut and the parking lot on Sansom then obviously, shipments would come in through Sansom.

[Hrytsyu]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Since it's an L shaped lot and includes the empty lot on Walnut and the parking lot on Sansom then obviously, shipments would come in through Sansom.

Well, yes. However, that is part of my point. Think tractor-trailers unloading onto Samson Street Platforms...Or perhaps making right-angle turns into an interior loading dock complex. It generates archetypal images common in logistical nightmares.

[kingtut]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

A lot of the high end stores in these big cities (even AC) you mention are probably intensively supported by short or long term visitors with lots of disposable income or a willingness to blow through the credit card to sustain a temporary delusion of wealth: conventioneers, tourists, gamblers, international students, expats, members of foreign families with well-located vacation houses. People who don't necessarily show up in the census.

When I've been to Boston, I'm amazed by the number of rich foreign students trolling Newberry Street, Prudential Center, and Copley Plaza. The Magnificent Mile must be 75% tourists. San Francisco and South Beach shopping areas are overrun with rich foreign kids. DC is loaded with expat elites living off government expense accounts.

Center City has made great strides, but it simply does not yet have the concentration of free-spending people you find in some of these other top tier cities. The biggest concentration around here by far is still along the Main Line, thus KOP.

Even where we could do better - by getting more conventioneers over to Walnut Street, say - we probably do a pretty lame job, in part because the convention center and big hotels are relatively remote and the shopping around there has been depressingly dismal since 1975 or so (that should be changing, which is great). I have a feeling tourists and conventioneers just don't shop much in Center City compared to their peers in Boston, Chicago, SF.

As it is, my sense is that Rittenhouse Sq is the best we can do from internally generated resident demand along with a bunch of wealthy students from Penn living off mum and dad's credit cards.

Philly needs more wealthy tourists, more wealthy students, more wealthy business expats, etc., to sustain the ultra high end retail. It also needs to get people from the Main Line who prefer KOP to take a train downtown and spend the day.

Until that happens, no Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus or Gucci or Prada is going to set up here.

I think you have to look at the great potential that Philly has with over six million ft^2 of research space coming on line with in the next 10 yrs and a new hospital at Penn , CHOP, Wister Institute., Comcast's vertical campus and Jeff's invigorated research programs . All high paying jobs over six figures ,litterly thousands of very skilled and highly educated .
Philly is a gold mine for company's looking for advanced degrees .The new economy for the twenty first century will come from inovaction , and not from S. Valley where phone apps are developed , but from real science progenerated in universities like Penn , Drexal , U of D. and all the other great schools in the Philly area .

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

A lot of the high end stores in these big cities (even AC) you mention are probably intensively supported by short or long term visitors with lots of disposable income or a willingness to blow through the credit card to sustain a temporary delusion of wealth: conventioneers, tourists, gamblers, international students, expats, members of foreign families with well-located vacation houses. People who don't necessarily show up in the census.

When I've been to Boston, I'm amazed by the number of rich foreign students trolling Newberry Street, Prudential Center, and Copley Plaza. The Magnificent Mile must be 75% tourists. San Francisco and South Beach shopping areas are overrun with rich foreign kids. DC is loaded with expat elites living off government expense accounts.

Center City has made great strides, but it simply does not yet have the concentration of free-spending people you find in some of these other top tier cities. The biggest concentration around here by far is still along the Main Line, thus KOP.

Even where we could do better - by getting more conventioneers over to Walnut Street, say - we probably do a pretty lame job, in part because the convention center and big hotels are relatively remote and the shopping around there has been depressingly dismal since 1975 or so (that should be changing, which is great). I have a feeling tourists and conventioneers just don't shop much in Center City compared to their peers in Boston, Chicago, SF.

As it is, my sense is that Rittenhouse Sq is the best we can do from internally generated resident demand along with a bunch of wealthy students from Penn living off mum and dad's credit cards.

Philly needs more wealthy tourists, more wealthy students, more wealthy business expats, etc., to sustain the ultra high end retail. It also needs to get people from the Main Line who prefer KOP to take a train downtown and spend the day.

Until that happens, no Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus or Gucci or Prada is going to set up here.

Great points! Also, locals know that they will pay an extra 2% sales tax on many things in the city so there is even less of an incentive to travel in to shop if you have access to the same things near you.

[UrbanRevival]

Just a quick comment about income levels in Center City compared to other downtowns/cities that I think gets lost in the discussion of disposable income.

I think everyone can reasonably agree that the wealth in the Philly area is definitely much more concentrated in its suburbs compared to other large cities. However, the fact that housing, food and utilities can be significantly cheaper in the city compared other large cities, as well, means that 100K in Philly, in relative wealth terms, is definitely higher than 100K in NYC, Boston, DC and San Francisco: http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/

Basically, although I'd also definitely agree that Philly does not receive as traffic from the wealthy tourist/business-person segment, the residential wealth of Center City is still higher (again, on a relative basis) than a raw number comparison between cities would indicate.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

However, the fact that housing, food and utilities can be significantly cheaper in the city compared other large cities, as well, means that 100K in Philly, in relative wealth terms, is definitely higher than 100K in NYC, Boston, DC and San Francisco

I agree with you, but people who worry about food and utility costs, no matter how affordable, do not shop at Gucci, Prada, Neiman Marcus, etc. Uniqlo, Gap, Banana Republic, Zara more likely.

Based purely on unmet internal demand, I'd imagine Philadelphia is probably ripe for more Euro-inspired "aspirational" upper middle level brands. But we definitely need more of the rich outsiders if you want the Louis Vuitton here.

[jn00]

[QUOTE=summersm343;7170024]PS - Rittenhouse Row NEEDS a website like this. Get on it VisitPhilly.com!!!

http://unionsquareshop.com/alpha.html[/QUOTE

Www.rittenhouserow.org

Www.philadelphiaretail.com

I'm also frustrated by the musical chairs of existing tenants and lack of interesting new retailers and getting banks and cell phone stores. My sense is that this isn't the fault of brokers though - their mandate is to obtain the highest possible rents for their individual client.... I blame the city for removing the zoning overlay which prohibited new cell phone stores, banks, and pharmacies on walnut and chestnut from broad to 20th or so (which I'm sure was supported by building owners).

Also, it's difficult to enforce good behavior on individual building owners on streets like walnut... Each is looking to maximize its own short term profit rather than do what might be best for the entire street long term which is something a mall owner or a property like CityCenterDC can achieve.

[McBane]

Yes, CC has a Ross, Nordstrom Rack, and Century21 and also a Burlington and Marshalls. But those are "discount" department stores. Great stores to have, no doubt. But they're not the same as your Macy's, Neiman's, Saks, Bloomingdales, etc. Counting those types of stores, there's only one true department store in Philly and for a city our size that's a crying shame.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by McBane

Yes, CC has a Ross, Nordstrom Rack, and Century21 and also a Burlington and Marshalls. But those are "discount" department stores. Great stores to have, no doubt. But they're not the same as your Macy's, Neiman's, Saks, Bloomingdales, etc. Counting those types of stores, there's only one true department store in Philly and for a city our size that's a crying shame.

What other cities have these department stores Downtown? Not many really....

NYC, SF, Chi, Boston? Really that's about it. I can't really think of any other Downtown area that does. Only reason Seattle has a Nordstrom is because it's based there. Otherwise it would just have a Macy's and most of the upscale shopping in the area is in Bellevue - a suburb. Most of LA's upscale shopping is in Beverly Hills - a suburb. Most of Las Vegas' shopping is along the Strip which is actually a suburb and not a part of the actual city. Most of Miami's shopping is in Miami Beach - a suburb. Most of ATL, Houston, Dallas, etc. shopping is in the burbs. Most of DC's shopping is in the outer neighborhood of Georgetown although Downtown is improving and then in the burbs like Tyson's Corner.

Very few cities have actual good Downtown Shopping or city shopping in the US. Downtown Shopping? NYC, Chi, SF, Boston, DC, Philly, Seattle, Miami. That's really it.

[Busy Bee]

You can thank the genuine bonafide deluxe climate controlled indoor shopping mall for that. Wreaking havoc since 1956.

[Larry King]

....

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by summersm343

What other cities have these department stores Downtown? Not many really....

NYC, SF, Chi, Boston?

Very few cities have actual good Downtown Shopping or city shopping in the US. Downtown Shopping? NYC, Chi, SF, Boston, DC, Philly, Seattle, Miami. That's really it.

That's about it. I think Philly comes in at a solid #5 behind NYC, SF, Chicago, Boston w/r/t genuine urban retailing (ie, not Vegas). Maybe DC is close. Miami Beach is OK, I suppose, I haven't been there for years, but when I was it seemed nice but superficial, without the depth and diversity of Philly's retail scene. Seattle must be good too (never been there) but on the whole I doubt it matches Center City. Beverly Hills is at the top as far as top end stuff goes, I guess, but it's sort of small and not a real downtown, more like a giant Ardmore or steroids.

I have heard Kansas City's south side has amazing retail too, particularly for a city its size.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by jn00

I'm also frustrated by the . . . . lack of interesting new retailers and getting banks and cell phone stores. . . . . it's difficult to enforce good behavior on individual building owners on streets like walnut... Each is looking to maximize its own short term profit rather than do what might be best for the entire street long term which is something a mall owner or a property like CityCenterDC can achieve.

There are economic theories to explain this kind of self destructive short-term thinking, I'm sure. The landlords are being collectively stupid. The more of them that bring banks and cell phone stores to Walnut, the more they are destroying the long term increases in the value of their properties by deadening the street and diminishing its cache.

But each goes after these high-paying, crappy tenants, even with the knowledge that it's a dumb thing to do long term, because they figure "well, if I don't, the guy next door will, so not only will I loose a lucrative tenant, but the street will lose cache anyway. So I may as well be the guy making the short term money, not him".

It's really too bad the top Walnut Street property owners can't get together, for the sake of their mutual benefit, and pledge not to rent to certain businesses: banks, cell phones stores, low-end fast food, drug stores, etc.

[1487]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Great points! Also, locals know that they will pay an extra 2% sales tax on many things in the city so there is even less of an incentive to travel in to shop if you have access to the same things near you.

You dont pay sales tax on clothes in PA so that extra 2% is mostly irrelevant when talking about upscale clothing stores.