Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The culturally interesting part is irrelevant. You explicitly linked immigrant outcomes, partly, probably not wholly, to a perceived "failing" on the part of the host society in the form of a lack of "authentic" culture that immigrants feel inspired to tap into, or a lack of concert about immigrants.

This is obviously utterly wrong, and a complete non-sequitur. There is not a single solitary example on earth to show that this is even remotely true, and indeed, there is evidence out there to suggest that precisely the opposite might be somewhat true or at least a little bit plausible, .

If we go back to what this was about originally, my point was aimed at taking some of the blame off immigrants (if people were tempted to blame them for the situation).

Basically, people shouldn't be angry at immigrants for not integrating to something that's so loosely constructed and elusive at times.

Of course, if people are comfortable with immigrants' current practices (doing their own thing), then there is no issue.

I honestly suspect that's the case for most Canadians, but not all them obviously.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I like the cultural diversity of Vancouver, where I live, and see evidence that it's coming to an end. What happens in cities that I do not live in and will never visit is not important to me. Is that really that difficult to believe?

Thanks for showing how any concern about a new monoculture is immediately met with accusations of racism though. My wife is East Indian, I chose to buy a condo in an Iranian neighbourhood, I live in Vancouver for fuck's sake. I'm pro-diversity, not pro "white," which I think is a silly concept and not something I identify with. I don't want a UK descendant/Christian dominant society either, which is why I live in Vancouver.

P.S. Richmond may be "only" 50% Chinese (seems dubious to me) but it was single digit Chinese 25 years ago, along with the rest of the city. That's why it's so shocking to those of us who have been here for decades.

Surprised you haven't mentioned purple people yet You live in North Vancouver, which is far more white than Richmond is Chinese. Aren't you concerned about the lack of diversity there? Or do you only like diversity in token doses within a dominant white culture? Sound like one of the "it's not my city anymore"-type old timers lol

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Basically, people shouldn't be angry at immigrants for not integrating to something that's so loosely constructed and elusive at times.

But this is a red herring, because when have non-elusive cultures ever welcomed immigrants and asked them to "be like us"? Before our current era the neighbours said "we don't want you here, go home," when they weren't actively doing worse. It is only in retrospect in places like the U.S. where people recite encomiums to people like the Polish who built up Chicago and "became Americans," etc. Because back in the day, they hated the Polish and beat the crap out of them in the schoolyards for talking funny.

I'm seriously scratching my head at the notion that there is a case out there where a large block of immigrants arriving in a country over a relatively short period of time were able to integrate into the host society specifically due to the fact that said host society had a well-defined culture that the immigrants could latch onto.

What examples are you thinking of? I just can't think of any. Indeed, I can only conjure up examples of second generation kids in Canada playing hockey instead of burning down banlieues in Paris, or working menial service jobs in southern Spanish cities and towns with no hope or probably even desire of ever feeling like Spaniards, etc.

Put bluntly: where has a case like Richmond or Markham ever happened anywhere else in history without bloodshed, or economic violence, or active discrimination?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

But this is a red herring, because when have non-elusive cultures ever welcomed immigrants and asked them to "be like us"? Before our current era the neighbours said "we don't want you here, go home," when they weren't actively doing worse. It is only in retrospect in places like the U.S. where people recite encomiums to people like the Polish who built up Chicago and "became Americans," etc. Because back in the day, they hated the Polish and beat the crap out of them in the schoolyards for talking funny.

I'm seriously scratching my head at the notion that there is a case out there where a large block of immigrants arriving in a country over a relatively short period of time were able to integrate into the host society specifically due to the fact that said host society had a well-defined culture that the immigrants could latch onto.

What examples are you thinking of? I just can't think of any. Indeed, I can only conjure up examples of second generation kids in Canada playing hockey instead of burning down banlieues in Paris, or working menial service jobs in southern Spanish cities and towns with no hope or probably even desire of ever feeling like Spaniards, etc.

Put bluntly: where has a case like Richmond or Markham ever happened anywhere else in history without bloodshed, or economic violence, or active discrimination?

This sounds a lot like Canadian exceptionalism. The history of the contemporary Indo-American community or Iranian-American community is not really less harmonious than that of the Chinese-Canadian community. Just to use that one example.

We also have certain second and third generation kids in NW and NE Toronto shooting each other up at an alarming rate, something which no one else in that city seems to do at anywhere near a comparable frequency.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Put bluntly: where has a case like Richmond or Markham ever happened anywhere else in history without bloodshed, or economic violence, or active discrimination?

Canada often does it better than most as I have said but it's also a reflection of our era globally as opposed to some ''magical'' answer that we Canadians have found but that eludes all other countries.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The culturally interesting part is irrelevant

Suppose we do consider it for a moment though. From the perspective of somebody immigrating to Canada from a place like China or India, Canada has an enormous amount of cultural distinctiveness. I'm not sure the smaller set of distinguishing factors between Canada and the US or Australia matters at all. There is a dominant culture in Canada and it is one of the largest, richest, and most influential on the planet.

The idea that certain places in Canada are special and the rest is "generic North America" is really silly too. The "generic North America" part, whenever I've seen it articulated on here, is by far the more diverse part of the continent and has by far the greatest cultural output. Canadians also sometimes like to self-servingly imply that the US is a giant wasteland full of hicks and that is equally absurd. There is far more going on in the US than in Canada, culturally and otherwise, and it is by far the more diverse of the two countries.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Suppose we do consider it for a moment though. From the perspective of somebody immigrating to Canada from a place like China or India, Canada has an enormous amount of cultural distinctiveness. I'm not sure the smaller set of distinguishing factors between Canada and the US or Australia matters at all. There is a dominant culture in Canada and it is one of the largest, richest, and most influential on the planet.

The idea that certain places in Canada are special and the rest is "generic North America" is really silly too. The "generic North America" part, whenever I've seen it articulated on here, is by far the more diverse part of the continent and has by far the greatest cultural output. Canadians also sometimes like to self-servingly imply that the US is a giant wasteland full of hicks and that is equally absurd. There is far more going on in the US than in Canada, culturally and otherwise, and it is by far the more diverse of the two countries.

To keep this somewhat related to the OP: in the US you also see quite a bit more business signage in non-official languages!

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This sounds a lot like Canadian exceptionalism. The history of the contemporary Indo-American community or Iranian-American community is not really less harmonious than that of the Chinese-Canadian community. Just to use that one example.

We also have certain second and third generation kids in NW and NE Toronto shooting each other up at an alarming rate, something which no one else in that city seems to do at anywhere near a comparable frequency.

I'd agree that American and Canadian models of immigration and integration/assimilation have far more in common with each other than we're led to believe with the whole "melting pot vs. mosaic" thing. Both countries are melting pots, both are mosaics. Differences between the two countries' models can be articulated - "multiculturalism" means different things on different sides of the border. There are different histories at work.

I'm not sure it's really fair to single out "certain second and third generation kids" in Toronto. When you take first, second and third generation people out of the equation, there really isn't much left to the city at all. I'm fourth generation (at least on one side, the other side's been here since the mid-19th Century) and that often surprises people. Toronto isn't particularly exceptional in its gun violence by North American standards - except perhaps exceptional in how little there is when compared to American cities. It would seem to me the cause of it is the same as the cause anywhere else on the continent - poverty, organized crime, inequality of opportunity and, yes, structural racism. I'd be willing to bet most white collar crime that occurs here is also committed by first, second or third generation people. I'd wager that most notable accomplishments and positive contributions to society here come from those groups as well. Hell, it's likely most breathing here is done by first, second and third generation Canadians. That's just what this city is.

That's not to say we've entirely done away with the "vertical mosaic." Certain groups (whether they have a long or short history in Canada) still tend to do better than others. The causes of that are complex, but the root ultimately lies in colonial history and colonial racism IMO. All New World nations, even those which have seen relatively little recent immigration, have something similar going on.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This sounds a lot like Canadian exceptionalism. The history of the contemporary Indo-American community or Iranian-American community is not really less harmonious than that of the Chinese-Canadian community. Just to use that one example.

But those two American examples are nothing at all like Markham and Richmond in terms of demographic concentration over a short period of time.

Again, I think the supreme example of a demographic onslaught with very little conflict or tension is the Italian diaspora in Argentina. Can't think of any others.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

But those two American examples are nothing at all like Markham and Richmond in terms of demographic concentration over a short period of time.

Again, I think the supreme example of a demographic onslaught with very little conflict or tension is the Italian diaspora in Argentina. Can't think of any others.

Richmond is *only* 50% Chinese and Markham is not even at 50%.

This wasn't that hard to find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._communities_with_Asian-American_majority_populations

Also, the U.S. has seen major metropolitan areas become strongly majority hispanic over barely more than a single generation.

As I said... "Canadian exceptionalism".

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Richmond is *only* 50% Chinese and Markham is not even at 50%.

This wasn't that hard to find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._communities_with_Asian-American_majority_populations

Also, the U.S. has seen major metropolitan areas become strongly majority hispanic over barely more than a single generation.

As I said... "Canadian exceptionalism".

Another quick Google search:

Black-Asian Tensions Spike In Bay Area
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126974839

San Francisco attacks fuel tension between Asians, blacks
http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/a...attacks-fuel-tension-between-1715110.php

Remember the attacks on Korean shops during the L.A. riots? How about the looted Asian stores in Ferguson last year? How about the stories about how hard it is to be an East Asian immigrant in an American high school? They're legion (of course, it's not very PC to mention the fact that it's almost exclusively black kids who are beating up Chinese kids).

And stories of conflicts in communities where Latin American immigration has grown or is growing are so commonplace that I won't even bother citing them. You can't seriously be claiming that the situation in Richmond and Markham is even remotely the same as for Hispanic-Americans. Ever heard of Latin American street gangs?

We're talking about complaints about signs in Canada. I mean, c'mon, let's get real here. For whatever reason, Canada is an exceptional place for immigrants, comparatively speaking.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I'm not sure it's really fair to single out "certain second and third generation kids" in Toronto. .

I only threw that out there in order to counter comments that seemed to hint that Canada might have achieved a level of near-perfection...

If I had a choice between being the dad of young black male in NW or NE Toronto or being the dad of a young North African male in the Paris banlieues, I am not sure which I'd pick...

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=rousseau;7148625]Another quick Google search:

Black-Asian Tensions Spike In Bay Area
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126974839

San Francisco attacks fuel tension between Asians, blacks
http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/a...attacks-fuel-tension-between-1715110.php

Remember the attacks on Korean shops during the L.A. riots? How about the looted Asian stores in Ferguson last year? How about the stories about how hard it is to be an East Asian immigrant in an American high school? They're legion (of course, it's not very PC to mention the fact that it's almost exclusively black kids who are beating up Chinese kids).

And stories of conflicts in communities where Latin American immigration has grown or is growing are so commonplace that I won't even bother citing them. You can't seriously be claiming that the situation in Richmond and Markham is even remotely the same as for Hispanic-Americans. Ever heard of Latin American street gangs?

We're talking about complaints about signs in Canada. I mean, c'mon, let's get real here. For whatever reason, Canada is an exceptional place for immigrants, comparatively speaking.[/QUOTE]

The Richmond sign issue is not the only ethnic or racial issue associated with immigration in Canada. As you said, come on, let's get real here.

Yes, Canada is a very good place for immigrants. Not THE BEST, and not the ONLY good place. But one of the best places for sure.

But you're starting to sound like a person who thinks he (or his country), has "all the answers" on this issue.

When people start talking like they have all the answers, I start to get worried.

[Acajack]

Does anyone seriously ever meet that many immigrants to the U.S. who tell you that they'd rather be living in Canada?

I seriously can count on one hand the number of immigrants in the U.S. who've told me they might like to live in Canada instead of the States.

And all of them talked about getting away from the crazy right-wing politics.

None of them talked about moving to a place where immigrants are more easily accepted into society.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Another quick Google search:

Black-Asian Tensions Spike In Bay Area
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126974839

San Francisco attacks fuel tension between Asians, blacks
http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/a...attacks-fuel-tension-between-1715110.php

Remember the attacks on Korean shops during the L.A. riots? How about the looted Asian stores in Ferguson last year? How about the stories about how hard it is to be an East Asian immigrant in an American high school? They're legion (of course, it's not very PC to mention the fact that it's almost exclusively black kids who are beating up Chinese kids).

And stories of conflicts in communities where Latin American immigration has grown or is growing are so commonplace that I won't even bother citing them. You can't seriously be claiming that the situation in Richmond and Markham is even remotely the same as for Hispanic-Americans. Ever heard of Latin American street gangs?

We're talking about complaints about signs in Canada. I mean, c'mon, let's get real here. For whatever reason, Canada is an exceptional place for immigrants, comparatively speaking.

I'm not sure what your point here is. From my perspective you are just cherry picking criminal activity in the United States which happens to involve immigrants.

Crime in the United States is overall much higher than Canada, and by extension, a higher number of immigrants are generally caught up in crime.

The fact that Latin-American street gangs exist has a lot to do with overall gang activity being much higher in the US. Several of those gangs also exist in some capacity in Toronto, by the way.

The fact remains you are cherry picking examples, and I could do that just as well in the other direction. Ladera Heights is 70% African American.

You hear a lot of stories about Latin American tensions in the US? Well, there are literally hundreds of communities with populations that have majority or almost majority hispanic/latino populations there.

Yes, you hear a few stories, but it is no where near the constant conflict and bloody history you seem to be implying.

In reality the USA and Canada are not so exceptionally different. There are plenty of tensions in Richmond. And yes, there have been plenty of riots in the USA. But there are dozens and dozens (and dozens and dozens) of peaceful districts in the USA that have "majority minority" make ups and had a peaceful path to get there.

Also, let's not forget BC's history. There have been riots and violence there too.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If I had a choice between being the dad of young black male in NW or NE Toronto or being the dad of a young North African male in the Paris banlieues, I am not sure which I'd pick...

Acajack, this is just trolling. You're seriously comparing the banlieues of Paris to Jane and Finch? Don't be ridiculous.

Canada is by most measures the best destination for immigrants there is. Who would seriously argue against this? Doesn't mean things are perfect or that we have all the answers, or even that there is something more virtuous about Canadians. The main reasons for it are probably due to accidents of history and geography.

Originally Posted by geotag277

I'm not sure what your point here is. From my perspective you are just cherry picking criminal activity in the United States which happens to involve immigrants.

Erm...what? Are you suggesting that Korean stores getting burned down in the riots happened in a vacuum? A fluke, a simple crime of opportunity?

Googling is so easy:

Why black-Asian tensions persist (i.e. now, not 1907)
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2014-01/10/content_17228648.htm

This does not happen in Canada. To any degree.

I'm perplexed by what we're arguing about here. I'm sure there are lots of immigrants in the U.S. that wouldn't be able to find Canada on the map. But what country comes out better than Canada for immigrants when you tally up the various metrics of safety, acceptance, opportunity, stability, etc.?

Honestly, think about it: we're all getting in a huff about some old white folks griping about Chinese-only signs in Richmond, BC. In what other country in the world would this be one of the biggest issues out there for immigrant-host community relations?

[geotag277]

USA is a big place with lots of history of crime. They have worse crime overall every single day. There are a myriad of news stories every day from the USA regarding crime. There is no end to them. You can google to your heart's content.

My point was simply that there are several (hundreds) of communities in the United States which have "majority minority" neighborhoods and cities, and had even less tensions compared to Richmond.

In the local news section of each of these individual communities, yes, a controversy over signs would be an issue. You do not see those local newspapers, however, you see the attention grabbing money making extreme sensationalist headlines that power the American media news.

While I would agree that "safety" will certainly fall below Canada in the USA (not just for immigrants, for everyone), I would argue that in terms of stability, opportunity, and acceptance there are PLENTY of role model neighbourhoods and cities in the United States that Canada falls well behind on.

[saffronleaf]

I think the dominant factor determining the success of immigrants is how selective the immigration policy is for the group in question.

Latin American gangs primarily exist because a very large number of Latin Americans come to the US illegally; they are poor and do not speak English. This increases the likelihood of being exposed to crime.

Conversely, a very substantial percentage of Asian Americans can only enter the US through student visas and subsequent adjustments of status to a work visa. This means that a substantial percentage of Asian Americans at least have an undergraduate degree and a job.

Some stats from Wiki:

Asian American : $68,088
Pacific Islands American : $ 58,859
White American : $ 54,857 (includes White Hispanics)
Total Population : $ 51,914
Native American : $ 38,806
African American : $ 35,341

More stats:

Indian American : $86,135
South African American : $81,912
Filipino American : $76,954
Taiwanese American : $73,988
Maltese American : $72,847
British American : $72,268

I do not have access to exact statistics, but I can assure you that Indian Canadians perform worse than Indian Americans in their respective societies. This is because Canada does not impose uniform per-country caps on immigration that make selection criteria more stringent for highly populated countries like India and China. Indian Canadians, from personal experience as an Indian Canadian, seem to perform worse than the majority -- but that's just anecdotal. They are certainly not as successful as their American counterparts. However, this is not because Canada is less welcoming than the US -- it is simply a consequence of the immigration policy.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Canada is by most measures the best destination for immigrants there is. Who would seriously argue against this? Doesn't mean things are perfect or that we have all the answers, or even that there is something more virtuous about Canadians. The main reasons for it are probably due to accidents of history and geography.

That is completely dependent on the preferences of the immigrant. Canada is friendly to immigrants in the sense that the level of hostility to immigrants is about as low as it gets. However, people immigrate for all sorts of reasons. If you're a tech nerd in Bangalore, you want to go to Silicon Valley even if research reveals that there is some Black / Asian tension in parts of the US. If you're a businessman in Mumbai, you want to go to London or New York City. If you hate winter, you'll prefer Australia and New Zealand.

True, a compilation of statistics on Black / Asian tension may reveal Canada to be superior to the US, UK, Australia, and New Zealand, but that may not be the decisive factor for those aspiring to immigrate.

Lack of hostility toward immigrants is obviously an important factor for immigrants to consider, but I feel like the main immigration destinations like the US, UK, Australia, and New Zealand are all reasonably friendly. Even if Canada outdoes them by having less recorded instances of Black / Asian tension, that difference may not be material to an immigrant's decision.

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'm perplexed by what we're arguing about here. I'm sure there are lots of immigrants in the U.S. that wouldn't be able to find Canada on the map. But what country comes out better than Canada for immigrants when you tally up the various metrics of safety, acceptance, opportunity, stability, etc.?

Opportunity? I think for most professionals, the US and UK provide better opportunities than Canada. As a lawyer, the money you can make in major markets in the US and London very significantly exceed that which you can make in Canada. I'm sure this applies to numerous sectors.

Originally Posted by rousseau

Honestly, think about it: we're all getting in a huff about some old white folks griping about Chinese-only signs in Richmond, BC. In what other country in the world would this be one of the biggest issues out there for immigrant-host community relations?

I assure you that there are far more serious issues for immigrants in Canada. This includes, for example:

- Racial discrimination by police (which has been extensively reported on in the Greater Toronto Area and something that I feel I have personally been a victim of)
- Continued low representation in the political sphere at all levels of government
- Disparate employment and income outcomes
- Attempts by the majority to erase facets of your religion / culture from the public sphere (e.g., the proposed burqa ban in Quebec)
- Two-tiered citizenship

And also, of course, plain old racism. The fact that many in Vancouver harbor racist sentiments against Chinese has been discussed already, so I won't rehash it.

[st7860]

In the U.S. Some salaries are higher however for individuals or families that do things other than going home straight after work every day then Canada is better