Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Where do you get this stat that Asians (by that I assume you mean Chinese) have the most disposable income. I remember they looked at income by ethnic group in Ontario and Chinese here had actually below average income compared to other ethnic groups.

lol You must be looking at stats from the 90s?
If you ever get the chance to drive or take the bus around Vancouver (or Markham, Ontario), take note of the ethnicity of people driving BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Porsches, Italian supercars etc.

[lake of the nations]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

If "dominant monoculture" is what you're against, why not target the 90%+ of Canadian municipalities that are 90%+ White English or French?

Seems odd to go after the one municipality that is ~50% Chinese.

Following that logic, one would have to target China itself...

[Acajack]

One thing that is often overlooked here is that if this is indeed a problem, or becomes one, a large part of it is a failing on the part of the host society.

Immigrants behave the way they do because a) they can and b) because that's the way they have always behaved.

At some point the host society has to give them something authentic and compelling to integrate with. Otherwise the immigrants will just go on as they always have, in addition to paying attention to ''shiny objects'' (regardless of origin, usually American of course).

Also, the host society has to show some interest in the immigrants themselves, and in engaging them and engaging with them. Beyond the usual ''you guys are free to as you please, but don't bug us either..."

These are two complaints or at least issues that immigrants have often mentioned to me about Canada.

Many have said they came to Canada eager to integrate with Canadian culture but didn't find much there, and didn't find Canadians themselves not interested much in it either.

They've also mentioned that Canada is great for letting them be, but that relationships with Canadians are often superficially nice, but they have the impression people are not really interested in getting to know them.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

If "dominant monoculture" is what you're against, why not target the 90%+ of Canadian municipalities that are 90%+ White English or French?

Seems odd to go after the one municipality that is ~50% Chinese.

I like the cultural diversity of Vancouver, where I live, and see evidence that it's coming to an end. What happens in cities that I do not live in and will never visit is not important to me. Is that really that difficult to believe?

Thanks for showing how any concern about a new monoculture is immediately met with accusations of racism though. My wife is East Indian, I chose to buy a condo in an Iranian neighbourhood, I live in Vancouver for fuck's sake. I'm pro-diversity, not pro "white," which I think is a silly concept and not something I identify with. I don't want a UK descendant/Christian dominant society either, which is why I live in Vancouver.

P.S. Richmond may be "only" 50% Chinese (seems dubious to me) but it was single digit Chinese 25 years ago, along with the rest of the city. That's why it's so shocking to those of us who have been here for decades.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

If "dominant monoculture" is what you're against, why not target the 90%+ of Canadian municipalities that are 90%+ White English or French?

Seems odd to go after the one municipality that is ~50% Chinese.

Racism against the Chinese is just the 'in' thing in Richmond right now as is for other groups in the Fraser Valley, and North Van.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by st7860

Racism against the Chinese is just the 'in' thing in Richmond right now as is for other groups in the Fraser Valley, and North Van.

Crazy that British Columbia is such a racist place (in 2015), I wouldn't have expected that. Thanks for the info...

[st7860]

Well I said Metro Vancouver is a nice place to live but there is plenty of racism here. Its just subtle except on online boards since of course people don't dare to say it in public.

Richmond takes a lot of heat for being Chinese
Surrey takes a lot of heat for having Indo Canadians.
North Vancouver has a reputation for having people from Iran but doesn't take heat for it.

The Chinese issue has existed in Richmond for 20 years. In 2003 a not so big asian mall was torn down in Richmond and rebuilt to nearly 4 times the size. There was a lot of press at the time about the landlord put in strict sign regulations because it is not a strata mall. So what happened is , sure everything is in English but well, not many Canadians in that mall even 10 years later.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by lio45

Crazy that British Columbia is such a racist place (in 2015), I wouldn't have expected that. Thanks for the info...

Some anecdotal evidence doesn't make it so.

The Canadian section gets more reactionary everyday. The positive statements about one's city will be questioned indefinitely, but the negative statements are taken at face value. It's an ugly scene.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Crazy that British Columbia is such a racist place (in 2015), I wouldn't have expected that. Thanks for the info...

I wasn't aware that racism against any group anywhere in Canada could so casually referred to as an ''in thing''.

I mean, many people in Quebec have issues with the way women are treated by certain fringes of islam, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it an ''in thing''.

The vast majority of people here are still nice and respectful to muslims.

An ''in thing'' makes it sound like it's a socially accepted attitude to act upon.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I wasn't aware that racism against any group anywhere in Canada could so casually referred to as an ''in thing''.

I mean, many people in Quebec have issues with the way women are treated by certain fringes of islam, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it an ''in thing''.

The vast majority of people here are still nice and respectful to muslims.

An ''in thing'' makes it sound like it's a socially accepted attitude to act upon.

Vancouver is a good place to live but its also been known for quite a while that it is hard to meet strangers here as people won't welcome you so much..

And yes a more recent item is taking shots at foreigners for buying things that other's cannot afford, not only homes but automobiles as well.

The most newest thing is people saying they're not racist just because they have the same ancestry.

"In thing" is just an informal term meaning it is becoming more common and unless you say it to someone's face, you won't get that many complaints about it.

[Steveston]

Perhaps some people here are getting the impression that racism is rampant in Richmond. I can tell you that it's not. Like any place on the planet, there are some who are blatantly, outwardly racist. There are some others who may be concerned (rightly or otherwise), about rate of change issues, and may blame "new residents", without stating a specific ethnic group.

But, I would say that the vast majority of long-time Richmond residents accept the changes happening here, or if they don't like it, simply choose to move somewhere else, without much complaint (after all, they likely cashed in big time with the sale of their large lot house).

The ones who are "making noise" are the ones who have been here for a long time, don't like the changes, blame the "newcomers", and want the City to preserve their view of "the old Richmond". An unrealistic view, in my opinion. How are you going to turn back the clock? Do you really want to evict a bunch of businesses and residents who don't fit your dated, narrow view of what Richmond "should be like"?

Unfortunately, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the editors of our community newspaper, and certain members of city council give this minority far too much credibility.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At some point the host society has to give them something authentic and compelling to integrate with....

I think you've jumped the shark with this, Acajack. The whole "English Canada is a mostly uninteresting cultural/social blank slate leading to a whole host of issues" line you seem so intent on pushing doesn't hold water.

There is no evidence whatsoever that English Canada's mentality toward immigrants and the level of distinctiveness of its culture result in meta-trends or outcomes with regard to immigrants. For every anecdotal immigrant you claim is disappointed with Canada I'll give you ten anecdotal immigrants who gush with gratitude at the hands-off lives they're living free from interference from governments or neighbours. Or the culture at large.

The utter freedom of the experience of living in Canada is a treasure, and it really, honestly does not matter that we don't have as many TV shows about Toronto as the U.S. does about New York.

Because this:

He learned a great deal about this divide when he was ghostwriting I Am Zlatan Ibrahimovic. His subject, the son of a Muslim Bosnian father and a Catholic Croatian mother, grew up in a notorious part of Malmö, a ghetto by any other name. “He was 20 before he watched Swedish television for the first time,” says Lagercrantz. “He lived in another world, a bubble. What people need to remember is that for every Zlatan Ibrahimovic, there are 10,000 others we’ve crushed just because they don’t fit in.”

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/au...on-millennium-girl-spiders-web-interview

I think we can all agree that Sweden is a more "culturally certain" society than English Canada. As is every other country in Europe. And I think we can all agree that the immigrant experience as a whole in Canada has been far, far superior to what has happened in Europe, at least in the postwar period.

In what country or society has large-scale immigration ever not been problematic to some degree? So we're sneering at people in Vancouver griping about Chinese-only signs, are we? Really? I challenge anyone to provide any examples of one group of immigrants taking over an ethnically different community in a short period of time that has gone better than in places like Richmond and Markham. It's an easy challenge, because from the Partition of India to the northern migration of African Americans in the first half of the 20th century, from Little Italy in Manhattan to "Bradistan," you can't.

Or did you really think that the Johnsons and Smiths on Mulberry Street were ecstatic when the Sicilian peasants started moving in? Was it: "Awright, cool, now we can get some authentic ravioli around here!" Erm...no.

The fact that there has been no objectively superior immigrant experience to what has been happening in Canada in the last seventy years anywhere on earth makes your fatuous claims about "problems" with immigration in English Canada (we all know that's what you mean) due to a perceived lack of authenticity, or something, look like playing with your hobby horse. You can compare TV shows in Quebec with the rest of Canada all you like, but claims that immigrants find Canada wanting because the best we can offer up out of the bounty of our rich heritage and tradition is a sad peameal bacon sandwich that most people have never heard of are ridiculous.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I think you've jumped the shark with this, Acajack. The whole "English Canada is a mostly uninteresting cultural/social blank slate leading to a whole host of issues" line you seem so intent on pushing doesn't hold water.

There is no evidence whatsoever that English Canada's mentality toward immigrants and the level of distinctiveness of its culture result in meta-trends or outcomes with regard to immigrants. For every anecdotal immigrant you claim is disappointed with Canada I'll give you ten anecdotal immigrants who gush with gratitude at the hands-off lives they're living free from interference from governments or neighbours. Or the culture at large.

The utter freedom of the experience of living in Canada is a treasure, and it really, honestly does not matter that we don't have as many TV shows about Toronto as the U.S. does about New York.

Because this:



I think we can all agree that Sweden is a more "culturally certain" society than English Canada. As is every other country in Europe. And I think we can all agree that the immigrant experience as a whole in Canada has been far, far superior to what has happened in Europe, at least in the postwar period.

In what country or society has large-scale immigration ever not been problematic to some degree? So we're sneering at people in Vancouver griping about Chinese-only signs, are we? Really? I challenge anyone to provide any examples of one group of immigrants taking over an ethnically different community in a short period of time that has gone better than in places like Richmond and Markham. It's an easy challenge, because from the Partition of India to the northern migration of African Americans in the first half of the 20th century, from Little Italy in Manhattan to "Bradistan," you can't.

Or did you really think that the Johnsons and Smiths on Mulberry Street were ecstatic when the Sicilian peasants started moving in? Was it: "Awright, cool, now we can get some authentic ravioli around here!" Erm...no.

The fact that there has been no objectively superior immigrant experience to what has been happening in Canada in the last seventy years anywhere on earth makes your fatuous claims about "problems" with immigration in English Canada (we all know that's what you mean) due to a perceived lack of authenticity, or something, look like playing with your hobby horse. You can compare TV shows in Quebec with the rest of Canada all you like, but claims that immigrants find Canada wanting because the best we can offer up out of the bounty of our rich heritage and tradition is a sad peameal bacon sandwich that most people have never heard of are ridiculous.

Believe it or not, I agree with most of your assessment. Except for the ''Acajack is a bad guy!" stuff, of which there is a lot it is true.

How many times do I have to say on here that Anglo-Canada is the most successful diverse society in the world, before it finally sinks in?

Canada being a really good place to immigrate to (one of the best? the best?) is not necessarily the same as saying Canadians (native-born and naturalized) are building something that is culturally interesting that the entire world is going to pay attention to and recognize as unique.

Canada is the Mary Ann Summers of countries. If you wanna be Ginger (not necessarily something to aspire to, but anyway) then you are gonna have to do better than just scream out to everyone ''But we ARE Ginger! You guys are just too ignorant or biased to notice!"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Steveston

Perhaps some people here are getting the impression that racism is rampant in Richmond. I can tell you that it's not. Like any place on the planet, there are some who are blatantly, outwardly racist. There are some others who may be concerned (rightly or otherwise), about rate of change issues, and may blame "new residents", without stating a specific ethnic group.

But, I would say that the vast majority of long-time Richmond residents accept the changes happening here, or if they don't like it, simply choose to move somewhere else, without much complaint (after all, they likely cashed in big time with the sale of their large lot house).

The ones who are "making noise" are the ones who have been here for a long time, don't like the changes, blame the "newcomers", and want the City to preserve their view of "the old Richmond". An unrealistic view, in my opinion. How are you going to turn back the clock? Do you really want to evict a bunch of businesses and residents who don't fit your dated, narrow view of what Richmond "should be like"?

Unfortunately, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the editors of our community newspaper, and certain members of city council give this minority far too much credibility.

Yeah, I know it's like this. I was just playing along... In retrospect, maybe I should not have.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by giallo

Some anecdotal evidence doesn't make it so.

The Canadian section gets more reactionary everyday. The positive statements about one's city will be questioned indefinitely, but the negative statements are taken at face value. It's an ugly scene.

The irony of my post was lost on you, I see.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

For every anecdotal immigrant you claim is disappointed with Canada I'll give you ten anecdotal immigrants who gush with gratitude at the hands-off lives they're living free from interference from governments or neighbours. Or the culture at large.
.

Oh, they obviously don't see it solely as a negative, precisely for the reasons you describe.

Both opinions often coexist in the same person: a) a wondering of why Canada doesn't have more of unifying national culture and b) a sense of ''OK, sure. If that's the way it's gonna be that suits me just fine. Sounds like a pretty good deal!"

It leads to people who are very attached to the idea of Canada and to the brand name, but on the other hand what it means to be Canadian and what is Canadian remains ill-defined.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I think we can all agree that Sweden is a more "culturally certain" society than English Canada. As is every other country in Europe. And I think we can all agree that the immigrant experience as a whole in Canada has been far, far superior to what has happened in Europe, at least in the postwar period.
.

But it's not a binary run-off between the difficult-to-penetrate ethnically-based old world model of Europe and the (alleged) ''clean slate'' Canadian model where the didgeridoo becomes a Canadian musical instrument the very moment Malcolm picks it up off the baggage carousel at Pearson and takes it with him into central Toronto...

These aren't the only two models that are available.

Don't get me wrong. The Canadian one is a very, very good one. But it doesn't produce all of the dividends that people claim that it does.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by lio45

The irony of my post was lost on you, I see.

It was. What was ironic about your post?

If you were being sarcastic, well, ok, but I need a wink smilie or something else to be in on it.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada being a really good place to immigrate to (one of the best? the best?) is not necessarily the same as saying Canadians (native-born and naturalized) are building something that is culturally interesting that the entire world is going to pay attention to and recognize as unique.

The culturally interesting part is irrelevant. You explicitly linked immigrant outcomes, partly, probably not wholly, to a perceived "failing" on the part of the host society in the form of a lack of "authentic" culture that immigrants feel inspired to tap into, or a lack of concert about immigrants.

This is obviously utterly wrong, and a complete non-sequitur. There is not a single solitary example on earth to show that this is even remotely true, and indeed, there is evidence out there to suggest that precisely the opposite might be somewhat true or at least a little bit plausible, i.e. the post-colonial host cultures in the anglosphere without startlingly unique cultures provide the most successful immigrant experience: Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

An interesting non-anglosphere case is Argentina, the most Italian country on earth after Italy. Somehow the Italians arrived in droves and implanted themselves on the host without too much tension or conflict. In fact, Italianness is so intervowen with Argentinian society that most of the slang in Argentinian Spanish is actually Italian or Italian-derived/inspired (a second generation Sicilian friend of mine in Hamilton who married an Argentinian says it's a total gas going to Buenos Aires because he understands all of the slang!).

It was probably the sheer number of Italians who got off the boats that made the immigrant transition a bit easier on the Italians, I assume. Interesting that they overwhelmed Buenos Aires, but not New York, where they were kept in their place until around 1977, when Saturday Night Fever came out. Prior to that they were just stayin' alive, but by the time the 1970s rolled around they had their boogie shoes on.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

i.e. the post-colonial host cultures in the anglosphere without startlingly unique cultures provide the most successful immigrant experience: Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
.

Aren't you, like, forgetting someone?