Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by nname

The passenger information system on Evergreen Line seems to be similar to the Canada Line ones (orange text) as oppose to the existing Millennium Line ones (red text).

Will the screens be showing arrival times for trains as at the Canada Line stations?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

Will the screens be showing arrival times for trains as at the Canada Line stations?

I know they've mentioned wanting to upgrade both the Expo and Millennium screens so they run like the Canada Line ones with arrival times. When they'll (able to afford to) do it... ?

[Mac Write]

Why didn't they go for full blown LED/TV display for the signs. Would have opened up endless possibiliies for the next 20-30 years of life for the signs.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Why didn't they go for full blown LED/TV display for the signs. Would have opened up endless possibiliies for the next 20-30 years of life for the signs.

TVs are for the advertisers to use.

[finalcoolman]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

I'm willing to go full-in and predict Burquitlam Station WILL open before Labour Day 2016, after the new bus loops and new connecting routes to SFU are in place there. This will also allow the re-build of Lougheed bus loop to it's final configuration, and commercial redevelopments can begin close to their original intended timelines.

Concurrent with this is a slightly less certain prediction that the full line will NOT be in operation before Christmas 2016. Remember, the original delay from Summer to Fall 2016 came out last February, after only the second sinkhole. A lot more has gone wrong since then, including the ill-fated "Late July" announcement for resumption of tunnelling.

Assuming the TBM does get going in the near future, AND has minimal additional problems, by the time it emerges at the South portal it will be essentially one solid year behind schedule for the rough, first-phase of construction.

The next Provincial Election is in May, 2017. A discrete, quiet announcement of a partial opening many months before that would be largely a face-saving mechanism. If the whole Evergreen Line isn't a glowing success by early Spring 2017 (e.g. if somebody's house or car or baby falls into a sinkhole) the whole thing will be too toxic for Victoria politicians and it will be brushed aside as a TransLink and/or SNC Lavalin issue. They'll be able to say the official opening already happened.

Umm...the Lougheed Station bus loop rebuild to its 'final' configuration has already been completed.

It will not open early.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Kisai

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/08/19/th...ented-concerning-the-edmonton-metro-line



Maybe because it's not Thales that's the problem, rather it's the fact (Edmonton's) a at-grade LRT with an existing signalling system? Any software developer will tell you it's a huge (expensive) mess to glue new software to old backends.

Hence my point earlier about "just adding one" station to the Millennium line. Are you forgetting where the existing line's terminus is? There is additional hardware requirements for operating that extra station or the entire extension, no matter which way it's set up. It's not like they can go "Open Burquitlam and all other stations are closed"

For all we know, each "Change" made to the software costs millions of dollars.

Of course they could go "Open Burquitlam and all other stations are closed".

They do that all the time on the current system. At the push of a button they can close a station due to a medical emergency and start running trains through the station without stopping, single track through an area, or short turn trains. Just the other month they closed down the Expo line past Scott Road, but trains short turned at Scott Road station. And running special trains through Main Street during construction didn't make the computers smoke and spit fire.

They were also able to run trains to Braid before the rest of the line was open. And even after the line opened, the trains made it past Lake City Way alright, and they were able to add VCC-Clark no problem.

Also, even though the tunnel is delayed, it doesn't mean other pieces are behind. They've been working on the train control for a while now (wasn't it the cause of one of the system blackouts last year?). So all the computer hardware and software to control the trains should be in place on the original schedule. The only hardware that is missing are the wire loops on the track in the tunnel and any hardwire control link that might pass through the tunnel.

But everything needed for the entire Evergreen line in the control room (including software) is probably already installed and undergoing software testing. They wouldn't be able to be on schedule without it.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Why didn't they go for full blown LED/TV display for the signs. Would have opened up endless possibiliies for the next 20-30 years of life for the signs.

They also don't last very long. LCD's have a useful lifespan of about 7-10 years before half of their brightness is lost. LED's have a "indefinite" life. Between the two, the lifespan has more to do with power supply units and less to do with the material the LED or LCD is made of. LCD's fade over time (and "screen burn" memory effects.)

It's technically better to have a monochrome or RGB LED electronic reader board because they are much brighter at all times of the day. They're also relatively cheap (about 2000$/sq meter), monochrome is even cheaper (about 500$/sq meter)

[Mac Write]

LED backlit of course (not CF). Just have the display be a custom LED display with tiny LED (RGB) which can display anything is what I mean. Conor code train coming in, etc.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Also, even though the tunnel is delayed, it doesn't mean other pieces are behind. They've been working on the train control for a while now (wasn't it the cause of one of the system blackouts last year?). So all the computer hardware and software to control the trains should be in place on the original schedule. The only hardware that is missing are the wire loops on the track in the tunnel and any hardwire control link that might pass through the tunnel.

But everything needed for the entire Evergreen line in the control room (including software) is probably already installed and undergoing software testing. They wouldn't be able to be on schedule without it.

On the News Hour tonight they said that contactors on complete parts of the project may not get paid until the overall project hits its milestones - and the overall project is impacted by tunnel delays.
(i.e. payments are made to EGRT based on overall performance, not piecemeal to contractors/subcontractors.)
So EGRT wouldn't be in a position to pay its contractors/subcontractors until the tunnel is completed - possibly leading to EGRT being sued by those contractors/subcontractors.

That calls into question when title to the assets, and the ability to operate even a segment of the line, would be transferred to TransLink.

Remember - the testing would probably be performed by EGRT, not TransLink.
(i.e. trains running/testing on the tracks does not mean the assets have been transferred to TransLink).

[queetz@home]

Here is a video from Global News regarding the tunneling delays...

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Here is a video from Global News regarding the tunneling delays...

Are you still chair of the "Who Cares?" Committee on the Evergreen tunnel?

[st7860]

The evergreen line is finally coming into place. Having said that, I couldn't resist saying - building the tunnel must be a boring job.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

Are you still chair of the "Who Cares?" Committee on the Evergreen tunnel?

I was never the Chair of the "Who Cares" Commitee of the Evergreen tunnel. I have always been the Chair of the "Open Burquitlam Early" Commitee, which is more and more likely to happen now more than ever....

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I was never the Chair of the "Who Cares" Commitee of the Evergreen tunnel. I have always been the Chair of the "Open Burquitlam Early" Commitee, which is more and more likely to happen now more than ever....

Actually, the way it's going Burquitlam may just open when it was first scheduled to and the rest of the line will be late...

[finalcoolman]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I was never the Chair of the "Who Cares" Commitee of the Evergreen tunnel. I have always been the Chair of the "Open Burquitlam Early" Commitee, which is more and more likely to happen now more than ever....

Did you not read what was just said? There are subcontractors who built Burquitlam, who have not been paid, nor will be paid till complete project completion.

How can title be transferred to Translink in this state? If you have ever been involved in any sort of civil litigation, you will have the slightest clue that opening Burquitlam early is less and less likely.

This is not the Millennium Line opening Braid early. Far from it. So STOP comparing it. The Millennium Line was directly designed and built by the Province, by Rapid Transit Project Office 2000 (a crown corporation) instead of a private contractor (EGRT Construction).

With the Millennium Line, RTPO 2000 directly hired all the firms and subcontractors. For example, Dominion construction was hired to build Sapperton station directly by the province, SAR Transit consortium was given the contract to build the segmented elevated guideway, Kiewit for example to build the Front St special structure.

With the Millennium Line construction, the province was directly paying all the subcontractors and was basically in control of everything. The Evergreen Line is a totally different story.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by officedweller

On the News Hour tonight they said that contactors on complete parts of the project may not get paid until the overall project hits its milestones - and the overall project is impacted by tunnel delays.
(i.e. payments are made to EGRT based on overall performance, not piecemeal to contractors/subcontractors.)
So EGRT wouldn't be in a position to pay its contractors/subcontractors until the tunnel is completed - possibly leading to EGRT being sued by those contractors/subcontractors.

That calls into question when title to the assets, and the ability to operate even a segment of the line, would be transferred to TransLink.

Remember - the testing would probably be performed by EGRT, not TransLink.
(i.e. trains running/testing on the tracks does not mean the assets have been transferred to TransLink).

Officedweller makes an interesting point and observation.

There is a huge rats nest in the making here .. where everything starts to impinge on everything else.

Delays in payments to contractors. ... delays in tunnel opening up the rest of the line ... no opening even of Burquitlam until payments are made .. provincial election in less than two years ... UBC line in planning but not yet announced.

You can just see the implications stretching out into the future.

What is really a mess is when it all falls in on itself. Contractors failing to finish the "rest of the line" until they get paid for what they have done ... more delays ... the contractor (SNC) does not have billions to front all sorts of subcontractor payments until they get paid (some uncertain date in the future) .. politicians running around playing a huge CYA game starting in the summer of 2016 .. everyone moving to the sidelines to see who will step up and "pull this puppy from the bear pit".

This TBM delay/disaster has the potential to upset much more than just a delayed start to some transit service.

[mrtinvan]

Originally Posted by Kisai

They also don't last very long. LCD's have a useful lifespan of about 7-10 years before half of their brightness is lost. LED's have a "indefinite" life. Between the two, the lifespan has more to do with power supply units and less to do with the material the LED or LCD is made of. LCD's fade over time (and "screen burn" memory effects.)

LCD Displays do not have burn in, Plasma displays did. LCD's do suffer from a reaction degredation, meaning over time the transistors that turn to block the light output will have slower reactions.

LED's do not have an "indefinite" life. They have what is called an L70 rating, usually 20,000 hours. Which means after 20,000 hours they will have faded to 70% of their original output, after that it is a logarithmic decay until they cease to output any light.

Otherwise, Video content requires quite a bit more bandwidth and infrastructure to deliver to multiple displays in each station, whereas scrolling text is minute.

If you have ever been on the Muni Metro in San Francisco, they use Seltrac to display current train positioning and it looks like garbage.

The scrolling text displays that are on the Canada Line are much more functional than the Expo Line and Millenium line, but there is also a pixel density difference, so all of the signage would have to be upgraded, and presumably the electronic backend at each station.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

Did you not read what was just said? There are subcontractors who built Burquitlam, who have not been paid, nor will be paid till complete project completion.

How can title be transferred to Translink in this state? If you have ever been involved in any sort of civil litigation, you will have the slightest clue that opening Burquitlam early is less and less likely.

This is not the Millennium Line opening Braid early. Far from it. So STOP comparing it. The Millennium Line was directly designed and built by the Province, by Rapid Transit Project Office 2000 (a crown corporation) instead of a private contractor (EGRT Construction).

With the Millennium Line, RTPO 2000 directly hired all the firms and subcontractors. For example, Dominion construction was hired to build Sapperton station directly by the province, SAR Transit consortium was given the contract to build the segmented elevated guideway, Kiewit for example to build the Front St special structure.

With the Millennium Line construction, the province was directly paying all the subcontractors and was basically in control of everything. The Evergreen Line is a totally different story.

Yet another wrinkle to P3 construction projects.

[officedweller]

But ultimately, from the customer's perspective, it's good not to have to pay up until the entire project is complete.
You can't do that if the work is contracted piecemeal (and in that case you aren't assured that all the pieces will fit together and work together, and you'd have to have a holdback for each contract).
This way, you can have that assurance that everything works together (with one bigger holdback).

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

Did you not read what was just said? There are subcontractors who built Burquitlam, who have not been paid, nor will be paid till complete project completion.

How can title be transferred to Translink in this state? If you have ever been involved in any sort of civil litigation, you will have the slightest clue that opening Burquitlam early is less and less likely.

This is not the Millennium Line opening Braid early. Far from it. So STOP comparing it. The Millennium Line was directly designed and built by the Province, by Rapid Transit Project Office 2000 (a crown corporation) instead of a private contractor (EGRT Construction).

With the Millennium Line, RTPO 2000 directly hired all the firms and subcontractors. For example, Dominion construction was hired to build Sapperton station directly by the province, SAR Transit consortium was given the contract to build the segmented elevated guideway, Kiewit for example to build the Front St special structure.

With the Millennium Line construction, the province was directly paying all the subcontractors and was basically in control of everything. The Evergreen Line is a totally different story.

Oh I'm sure if "ownership" of the Burquitlam segment "belongs" to the subcontractor, the Province and/or Translink can negotiate to pay the subcontracors for use of it "early" in order to gain photo-op points. All happening behind close doors from the public. Don't be naive that this can never happen....

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Officedweller makes an interesting point and observation.

There is a huge rats nest in the making here .. where everything starts to impinge on everything else.

Delays in payments to contractors. ... delays in tunnel opening up the rest of the line ... no opening even of Burquitlam until payments are made .. provincial election in less than two years ... UBC line in planning but not yet announced.

You can just see the implications stretching out into the future.

What is really a mess is when it all falls in on itself. Contractors failing to finish the "rest of the line" until they get paid for what they have done ... more delays ... the contractor (SNC) does not have billions to front all sorts of subcontractor payments until they get paid (some uncertain date in the future) .. politicians running around playing a huge CYA game starting in the summer of 2016 .. everyone moving to the sidelines to see who will step up and "pull this puppy from the bear pit".

This TBM delay/disaster has the potential to upset much more than just a delayed start to some transit service.

Not really sure what "UBC Line" is, and why it is included in this so called fall out. While the TBM delay/disaster will indeed upset much more than the transit service (i.e. future tunneling contractors will think twice and be even more conservative at their ETAs), its not going to be that much of a big deal. The damage has already been done since the Evergreen Line has been delayed for decades.