Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[logan5]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I'm sure the arena will be great but that stadium is brutal....it will be like watching football in a convention centre....those types of facilities are terrible (fargodome). Build a real open air stadium and separate field house.

That's a good point. Were conventions mentioned because it really does look like more of a convention centre than a sports stadium.

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

But... But it'll define Calgary as a world-class city

My opinion on this proposal: too much gimmick for what this city actually needs. I'm not even sure Scotiabank Saddledome needs to be replaced. If it does, then no need for Calgary to build a world-class arena, just build something that looks good in the 250-300M range and everything will be fine. As for McMahon, that's another project.

Good on mayor Nenshi for keeping his city in perspective and not getting too excited with crazy, over-the-top concepts. Especially when there are public funds involved.

I understand why Calgarians are excited by this but I find it much better to build a functional and pleasant arena before one that is only architecturally appealing.

The saddledome does need to be replaced, no doubt there. McMahon even more so. When I see almost every other city in the country building new stadiums and arenas it makes it hard to stomach that we are so far away still, even after this reveal today. I don't want to settle on a 'good enough' arena and some bleachers for the stampeders to play in front of. It doesn't have to be 'world class' but it should be up to par with modern standards etc. I agree with what your saying.

[Oilkountry]

What a piss poor exuse for a stadium presentation.

That "new" stadium reminds me of a glammed up domed version of molson stadium before the renos.
Ugly horseshoe seating with 2 off set height grandstands and a highly visible running track surrounding the field covered by retractable stands in a half ass fashion. How they dubbed this "world class" is beyond me. eww

[EpicPonyTime]

Question for the Calgarians here: do fans really have that big of an issue with playing outdoors that the new stadium has to be domed? Everything about the stadium bothers me, from the small seating capacity, to the layout, to the fact the arena and the stadium are connected.

[osmo]

Folks have to be realistic here. With King owning both teams you were never going to get two "separate" facilities. There was never any secret that this would be a combination plan. No way you are going to get two separate plots of land, especially with the need of proximity to the LRT which would explode land costs, people here are being very unreasonable.

Next is the dome. Yes domes were out of fashion but because this is a mixed use facility you really don't have a choice. Go ask Minneapolis about "outdated" domes, if you build it with a clear, or near clear roof then it is no different then being outside when its closed. Does BC Place really feel like Rogers Center with its roof closed? The ability to get natural light in there makes all the difference.

Not sure what folks were expecting. The trend with CFL builds has been to build a palace like Regina. build a tin roof, bare bones facility like Hamilton, or build a bait and switch facility that looks nice..but with shoddy in materials and a leaky roof like Winnipeg. The Calgary proposal is a blend of 2/3, it could be very nice if high quality materials are used, or it can be a love child of cheapo construction like Hamilton and Winnipeg.


The stacked stands don't bother me. Levis Stadium has the same concept, upper deck seats costs more to build and can't be sold for a premium so there is a disincentive to build them. It probably would blow up costs to build another small upper deck on such a awkward site, plus it gives no ability for expansion for GCs. Lost in this "Rec Centre" hustle is that likely that bare side will get temp seating for GCs.

[Beelzebub]

Dear Calgary,

Don't do something stupid that you're gonna regret a few years later.

Sincerely,
Ottawa

[king10]

Originally Posted by osmo

Folks have to be realistic here. With King owning both teams you were never going to get two "separate" facilities. There was never any secret that this would be a combination plan. No way you are going to get two separate plots of land, especially with the need of proximity to the LRT which would explode land costs, people here are being very unreasonable.

Next is the dome. Yes domes were out of fashion but because this is a mixed use facility you really don't have a choice. Go ask Minneapolis about "outdated" domes, if you build it with a clear, or near clear roof then it is no different then being outside when its closed. Does BC Place really feel like Rogers Center with its roof closed? The ability to get natural light in there makes all the difference.

Not sure what folks were expecting. The trend with CFL builds has been to build a palace like Regina. build a tin roof, bare bones facility like Hamilton, or build a bait and switch facility that looks nice..but with shoddy in materials and a leaky roof like Winnipeg. The Calgary proposal is a blend of 2/3, it could be very nice if high quality materials are used, or it can be a love child of cheapo construction like Hamilton and Winnipeg.


The stacked stands don't bother me. Levis Stadium has the same concept, upper deck seats costs more to build and can't be sold for a premium so there is a disincentive to build them. It probably would blow up costs to build another small upper deck on such a awkward site, plus it gives no ability for expansion for GCs. Lost in this "Rec Centre" hustle is that likely that bare side will get temp seating for GCs.

No reason why the City of Calgary can't go on their own and build the stadium on a separate plot of land they own.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

Dear Calgary,

Don't do something stupid that you're gonna regret a few years later.

Sincerely,
Ottawa

Welcome back

[esquire]

I don't think the proposed Calgary arena is going to be an issue since the NHL's economic model doesn't leave a lot of room to improvise. Nearly every rink built in the last 25 years is very similar on the inside with only relatively minor variations, and I wouldn't expect Calgary's to be much different.

The potential problem here is the proposed stadium. For whatever reason CSEG has gone off in a completely different direction than every other pro football team in North America and instead of proposing a purpose-built football stadium, is proposing some weird hybrid of a university fieldhouse/community centre/convention facility/pro football stadium.

I don't think that the fixed roof on its own would be an insurmountable problem, but when you throw in all of the shortcomings like small capacity, weird lopsided layout and a generally hangar-like environment, I think this stadium would be a big disappointment. It'll be a shiny and new stadium, but it would automatically be the worst stadium in the western division and probably offer up one of the worst game-day experiences in Canada. Frankly, I'm surprised that Calgary is aiming lower than Regina and Winnipeg.

The football fans of Calgary would be a lot better served if CSEG just built a better quality football specific open air stadium. The city could then build an indoor fieldhouse separately. The scale of this project is audacious and impressive, but when you look more closely the biggest single component leaves a lot to be desired.

[king10]

Also i know its a prelim drawing but those sure look like bench seats.

[Pavlov]

A lot of disappointing elements of the plan released yesterday. Personally, the most disappointing thing is the total lack of attention to public spaces or integration with the city and neighbourhood, especially considering the way that this plan is being sold to the public as transformative of a long neglected city centre district.

Flames really need to retain an architectural firm that can do this right if it is going to have any chance of succeeding. I'm trying to stay optimistic but it isn't easy at the moment.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by king10

Also i know its a prelim drawing but those sure look like bench seats.

Yeah, I noticed the same thing but figured it was just a quick and dirty sketch... after all, there's no way anyone would be dumb enough to build a pro sports facility in this day and age with bench seating, right?

Originally Posted by Reesonov

A lot of disappointing elements of the plan released yesterday. Personally, the most disappointing thing is the total lack of attention to public spaces or integration with the city and neighbourhood, especially considering the way that this plan is being sold to the public as transformative of a long neglected city centre district.

Flames really need to retain an architectural firm that can do this right if it is going to have any chance of succeeding. I'm trying to stay optimistic but it isn't easy at the moment.

In Regina and Winnipeg, impressive initial renderings went a long way toward convincing the public of the merits of those stadium projects. By contrast, Calgary's underwhelming drawings will make people stop and think twice about the whole thing.

[Beelzebub]

That's just an ugly stadium. That's the kind of ugly stadium other ugly stadiums look at and say "now THAT's an ugly stadium".

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I'm sure the arena will be great but that stadium is brutal....it will be like watching football in a convention centre...

Pretty much this.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by king10

No reason why the City of Calgary can't go on their own and build the stadium on a separate plot of land they own.

Why would they? What reason does the City have to build the Stamps a Stadium? If they want to go thier own route the City would build a Filedhouse on their own. The Mayor has made the position, The Stamps are just as much as private/pro team as the Flames.

This proposal is fishing public dollers for the Stamps, as King could build a new arena for the Flames tommorow with his own money as it would make money, the Stamps facility.. ahh err.. not so much.

Plus people act like this is worse then McMahon. Stamps play in a moldy dump currently and this (well anything) is much of a improvmenet. Beggers can't be chooers, you can't take a position not to pay for the facility and then moan it looks like a space bubble to watch games. If you are willing and are on hte side that public dollers go towards this then open up your own wallet to fund a better "more football friendly" design.

The other reality that is lost in the talk and noise is that King is expecting the City/Public to pay $600-800 million towards this folly. The only thing that is certian is that King and his group are putitng up $200 milllion for this project, much of which IMO is likely to be for the Flames end of the project that will bring back the most ROI to his group.

Lastly, the "$890 million" figure is bogus as it does not include clean-up costs for that site, nor does it include operational/maintance figures, etc. As I stated this is a $1 billion + project and King has stated to only put up $200 million... so how are going to fill up the rest of those gaps minus folly schemes like "communiuty levys" and Ticket Taxes?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by osmo

Plus people act like this is worse then McMahon. Stamps play in a moldy dump currently and this (well anything) is much of a improvmenet.

For all its faults, McMahon can still draw a crowd of 25-30 thousand on the regular. Will a football field in a warehouse, even if it is a new and shiny warehouse, be able to do the same? Looking at those drawings doesn't inspire much confidence as to the atmosphere it would generate... it looks like a modern day version of the 1990s Alamodome or Fargodome airplane hangar-type structures, except that it lets in natural light (yay) and has a track (boo).

If Calgary is going to shell out big dolla on a new stadium, you might as well get it right instead of building some weird bastard-child hybrid that ends up turning people off football.

[Surrealplaces]

Agreed. I've never liked domed stadiums. If they can do one with glass panels and partial retractability or something, I'll down with that. They key is having that open air and natural light....especially the natural light.

Originally Posted by esquire

Good analogy. That's what it looks like. If it's built as illustrated, within two years of opening people will be staying away on account of the lack of atmosphere that will inevitably result.

Originally Posted by trueviking

^ yeah. nobody builds solid roof domes anymore....domes have killed the fan experience in every sport....its time to move past it.

A $500m arena and $250m open air stadium somewhere else makes much more sense....the rest can build you a really nice fieldhouse/convention facility.

[king10]

Originally Posted by osmo

Why would they? What reason does the City have to build the Stamps a Stadium? If they want to go thier own route the City would build a Filedhouse on their own. The Mayor has made the position, The Stamps are just as much as private/pro team as the Flames.

This proposal is fishing public dollers for the Stamps, as King could build a new arena for the Flames tommorow with his own money as it would make money, the Stamps facility.. ahh err.. not so much.

Plus people act like this is worse then McMahon. Stamps play in a moldy dump currently and this (well anything) is much of a improvmenet. Beggers can't be chooers, you can't take a position not to pay for the facility and then moan it looks like a space bubble to watch games. If you are willing and are on hte side that public dollers go towards this then open up your own wallet to fund a better "more football friendly" design.

The other reality that is lost in the talk and noise is that King is expecting the City/Public to pay $600-800 million towards this folly. The only thing that is certian is that King and his group are putitng up $200 milllion for this project, much of which IMO is likely to be for the Flames end of the project that will bring back the most ROI to his group.

Lastly, the "$890 million" figure is bogus as it does not include clean-up costs for that site, nor does it include operational/maintance figures, etc. As I stated this is a $1 billion + project and King has stated to only put up $200 million... so how are going to fill up the rest of those gaps minus folly schemes like "communiuty levys" and Ticket Taxes?

because if they're going to use public funds they may as well build it right.

they don't need a $200 mill field house. They can build one for community purpose for 25 mil. and use the 175 mil on an outdoor stadium. The Flames are only putting 200 mill towards the arena. Its not like Calgary is getting a free stadium. They're paying for it themselves with $200 mill already earmarked for it. They aren't "beggars" theyre using 200 mill of their own money to build a stadium/convention centre/fieldhouse/warewouse

throwing 200$ mill of public money to this crappy project is not best bang for tax payers buck . do it right. not "ahh screw it, its better than mcmahon"

This design is complete garbage. Take your $200 mill public funds and you have more than enough for seperate field house and stadium. Not some dingy 1980's convention centre with bench seating, running track and waay to many endzone seats.

[Surrealplaces]

That's exactly it. A new arena isn't an issue really, as the owners could easily do that themselves. It will be well used and have no problem generating the revenue to make it possible to build. The arena is mostly what they are focused on as that is where they will make their money.

Unfortunately I think the stadium is just a throw in side piece. That said, if the public is going to contribute, it needs to be a better design and better thought out.

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think the proposed Calgary arena is going to be an issue since the NHL's economic model doesn't leave a lot of room to improvise. Nearly every rink built in the last 25 years is very similar on the inside with only relatively minor variations, and I wouldn't expect Calgary's to be much different.

The potential problem here is the proposed stadium. For whatever reason CSEG has gone off in a completely different direction than every other pro football team in North America and instead of proposing a purpose-built football stadium, is proposing some weird hybrid of a university fieldhouse/community centre/convention facility/pro football stadium.

I don't think that the fixed roof on its own would be an insurmountable problem, but when you throw in all of the shortcomings like small capacity, weird lopsided layout and a generally hangar-like environment, I think this stadium would be a big disappointment. It'll be a shiny and new stadium, but it would automatically be the worst stadium in the western division and probably offer up one of the worst game-day experiences in Canada. Frankly, I'm surprised that Calgary is aiming lower than Regina and Winnipeg.

The football fans of Calgary would be a lot better served if CSEG just built a better quality football specific open air stadium. The city could then build an indoor fieldhouse separately. The scale of this project is audacious and impressive, but when you look more closely the biggest single component leaves a lot to be desired.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by esquire

For all its faults, McMahon can still draw a crowd of 25-30 thousand on the regular. Will a football field in a warehouse, even if it is a new and shiny warehouse, be able to do the same? Looking at those drawings doesn't inspire much confidence as to the atmosphere it would generate... it looks like a modern day version of the 1990s Alamodome or Fargodome airplane hangar-type structures, except that it lets in natural light (yay) and has a track (boo).

If Calgary is going to shell out big dolla on a new stadium, you might as well get it right instead of building some weird bastard-child hybrid that ends up turning people off football.

The track will be coverd by the seats. They won't be a issue for the Stamps as the new renders have shown.

The lack of light is the main reason that domes were tossed to the waste bin as nobody wanted to watch games in a bunker. This proposal has lots of natural light from a clear/ see-through roof.


I am far from defending this thing but people act now like McMahon was all that much better when it literally... literally, is one of the worst pro stadia in North America. Nothing aside from staying at that dump will turn fans off. If Calgary folks really don't like it then pay for renovations for McMahon and then let King build the arena on that proposed site (Which IMO might end up being the end situation if public outcry agianst public money is that strong).

So .. what do you expect King to do?

If he proposed this...

-Vikingsgab

Would folks be happy? It is a dome remember...

Of course folks would be, but then King would have a 0% chance of getting public money as its obvious that is a football stadium and not a .. "community recretational filedhouse and event centre for social good and change" which has some slight chance of getting public money.

This is like going fishing for trout with a bazooka. King is tossing it all out there to fish money, I can't blame him, and not in favour of it, but it is very ammusing and I have my popcorn ready for it all.