New Downtown Calgary Arena

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

Hopefully the CMLC gets involved and gives the West Village a real transformation.

Looks like they will be involved, though there are more parties involved here than in EV.... should be nice to see the riverwalk eventually span from Fort Calgary and St. Patrick's in the East to the pumphouse theater in the West.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

From Nenshi about today's announcement:

However, there are a number of challenges that must now be addressed:

- The proposal has not been part of The City's comprehensive capital planning process, and does not form part of the plan, under which the City's capital funds are fully allocated through 2018.

- The proposal includes incorporating The City’s proposed (and much-needed) fieldhouse into the facility. However, that project, while a very high priority for the City, remains unfunded.

- The funding proposal includes a $250 million “ticket tax”, but it is unclear if The City will be asked to provide the upfront financing for this.

- The proposed site requires significant expenditures to remediate the environmental contamination there. That remediation is also unfunded.

- In addition, the proposal requires the contribution of land, a community revitalization levy and significant investments in infrastructure to make the
West Village a complete and vibrant community.

Therefore, there are very significant requirements for public funding beyond the fieldhouse funding, and there is currently no money.

I have said for a long time—and continue to strongly believe—that public money must be for public benefit and not private profit. The question for Council, the ownership group, and all Calgarians is whether this proposal meets that test.

http://calgarymayor.ca/stories/mayor-nenshis-statement-on-a-new-arena-stadium-fieldhouse-proposal

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

I wonder how much design work has actually gone into this thing. Surely the price tag is based on some measure of engineering/design.

From their website:

How we estimated the overall cost

With the approximate size of 127,788 sm for CalgaryNEXT, we estimated the total cost of the development assuming construction would begin in 2017. In doing so, we have accessed a large database of the actual construction costs of other recently constructed Event Centres and Stadiums.

In addition to using historical construction costs, we consulted local construction professionals with intimate knowledge of the market in Calgary to help developing the construction budget for all components of the CalgaryNEXT. The estimated costs for professional design services, project management and administration, pre-opening costs and furniture, fixtures and equipment are also included in the estimates.

In other words, pulled almost entirely out of their 🞵🞵🞵. Embarrassing. I would ask an 8 year old to do better costing before buying them a puppy.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If they do go with underground parking under the stadium, I'd think it would make sense to bury Bow trail at the same time, and it could have same grade access to the parking area. Keep it totally hidden. Any precedent for parking under a stadium?

Putting Bow trail underground is a completely different bowl of wax my friend. That would be a "hundreds of millions" project on its own. Seriously.

As a general comment on this issue of squeezing out public realm and vitality, that is really a symptom of the scale of west village. It is a pinch on the small side for this type of thing, which could only be circumvented if the complex was built elsewhere on a larger plot of land.

[*Stardust*]

Needs more residential for sure. 750 units doesn't seem like a lot?

At first I wanted to wait and see what the plans were before giving an opinion, but I truly do think Bow trail needs to be moved. This is just the beginning though, I'm assuming changes will be made accordingly as time goes on. We need to be vocal about this to the City.

[outoftheice]

Thumbs up for what the Flames are proposing to accomplish. Thumbs down that it does nothing to realign Bow Trail and add park space to our river-front. A proposal that realigns westbound Bow Trail to the south side of the complex, borrows the 'grand staircase' concept from the west village proposal so that the realigned Bow Trails don't form a barrier to pedestrian connectivity and then an East Village style riverwalk with added park space along the river would change this proposal into a two thumbs up winner in my books.

[lubicon]

30 000 seating for the stadium is pathetic. Needs to be 40 in my opinion, and expandable to 50 for special events. Anything less is a waste of money.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

I suspect we're far from the finished product (and yes I realize it's just a concept design) but I believe the City will want some major things changed (density, Bow Trail alignment) if they're paying for half of it.

I get the impression that the only thing that has been discussed between KK and the City is settling on the best location for the new arena/fieldhouse.

[Spring2008]

From the press conference, Ken mentions these are not the final designs.

Additional funding may become available through the new city charter.

It would be great for the city to manage more of its own tax income. We currently pay approx $4B more than we get back annually to the provincial govt which is absolutely ridiculous.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The clean up costs are sunk. It will happen no matter what. The city should have been carrying an unfunded liability on its books as it assembled the land. Now, whether it is desirable to remediate to the point of adding residential, the city already decided cost unseen that that is the case.

The clean up costs are sunk is a bit simplistic. When I listened to the presentation, KK made the point multiple times that the current contamination is a Provincial liability, HOWEVER, if the city starts to work the site they (the city) then assume liability. Hence why nobody has done anything with the site, they're hoping the other party moves first.

If this is the case, the city, (and it's taxpayers) would be well advised to pressure the Province to uphold its responsibilities instead plowing ahead and assuming those costs on behalf of Calgarians.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by *Stardust*

Needs more residential for sure. 750 units doesn't seem like a lot?

Agree, but reason is, West Village is too small for anything really transformational and truly multi-use (IE with balanced increases in retail, restaurant, residential, commercial, entertainment).

[Calgarian]

Looks promising!

[Chealion]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Agree, but reason is, West Village is too small for anything really transformational and truly multi-use (IE with balanced increases in retail, restaurant, residential, commercial, entertainment).

Have you looked at the existing West Village ARP? Long term plan would see a multi-use area with as much as 13 thousand residents and 9000 jobs. (A bit high I think - but even at half that - it's a respectable amount)

http://www.calgary.ca/_layouts/cocis/Dir...2fwest-village-arp.pdf&noredirect=1&sf=1

[Socguy]

My take: The combined building seems like a fantastic piece of infrastructure and it would be a great replacement facility for both the Stamps and for the Flames to use and a much better fan experience attending events there.

OTOH, the amount of public money and debt KK seems to be asking for shocked even me and I was fully expecting a big ask. Without going into too great of detail, I'm not convinced that a CRL is and appropriate funding mechanism for this project in this area of the city as once it's cleaned up, there is no reason not to believe that development would not flourish. Perhaps a CRL would be appropriate to clean up the contamination but, again, once that happened this stadium/arena structure would not seem to be necessary to spur development of this area. KK seems to be trying to follow the Edmonton funding model but he's failing to acknowledge the differences. When sober minds take a look at the project in the next few weeks/months I believe these significant differences between the cores of both cities will begin to dawn on them. One (Calgary) is flourishing while the other was languishing.

Ticket tax, I'm neutral on. It's user pay which is fine but if the city is responsible for fronting the cost it will add to the city debt which could reduce the cities ability to borrow for other priorities.

Cleanup. Where does this money come from? Province? City? Do we launch a 2nd CRL to do this?

The potential hidden cost: The city will own the building, great. It benefits KK that way because he then doesn't need to purchase the land. Problem being is that depending on how much rent the Flames are going to pay to use that facility, the city could be sacrificing huge $$$ in potential revenue if they had just gone ahead with an East Village style development on the site.

This is just off the top of my head and I'm sure others will have a better grasp on the nitty gritty of the funding. Fundamentally, as nice as this building is, the primary beneficiary will be ownership of the Flames/Stamps and given the choice, I'd rather see the money invested in things like transit.

[Bokimon]

My thoughts: 6/10

I like the dual facilities interconnected as one mega complex to bring thousands of people into the area at once. I also love the roof how it can be open and closed, the owners should ensure they make full use of our sunny climate as we are the sunniest city in Canada.

Nay: The circulation of the Pedestrian and Cars appears to be a nightmare. Lots and lots of research and design work needs to be done to somehow streamline 50,000 people and many thousands of cars that will be coming in and out in various directions.
There are opportunities to improve existing roadways and at the very least I think an additional lane should be included ontop of whatever realignment work is to be proposed for Bow Tr. All pedestrian circulation should basically be elevated above the roadways seeing the site itself is rather tight with surrounding condos that will be a part of this neighborhood.

Parking needs to be addressed somehow as many fans are living in the burbs fanning out in all directions. Maybe even build a parking structure further away and have people walk a km or so to the venue (The walk is something of that sort currently whether from the LRT station or the more distant surface lots at the stampede grounds). Or have some kind of shuttle service to ferry people back and forth, the long windy wagons that you see at amusement parks.

Stadium seating should be higher than originally proposed and same with the hockey rink.

My dream would be to have this project awarded to the likes of RTKL or ZAHA HADID to design this entire complex, I would pack up all my assets and buy one of the first condos that goes on sale at that site in the coming years!
Also would love to have a Marriott or Renaissance setup a property in the middle of the complex so the hotel rooms can view into either venue, kind of like the one at ROgers Center in Toronto. Since it has heavy public funds, the public needs to be engaged over the next year or so to make sure it meets the demands of the majority before proceeding.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Chealion

Have you looked at the existing West Village ARP? Long term plan would see a multi-use area with as much as 13 thousand residents and 9000 jobs. (A bit high I think - but even at half that - it's a respectable amount)

http://www.calgary.ca/_layouts/cocis/Dir...2fwest-village-arp.pdf&noredirect=1&sf=1

I have actually, and was involved for a particular project in that plan some years back.

My point was about this specific project and being able to integrate within its specific contexts. There is only so much north / south width there.

The ARP would of course be back to the drawing board were this project to be approved.

[polishavenger]

Originally Posted by lubicon

30 000 seating for the stadium is pathetic. Needs to be 40 in my opinion, and expandable to 50 for special events. Anything less is a waste of money.

What semi regular event draws more than 30,000 people? When was the last time the stamps sold out a game? You'd have a similar situation to what you see in BC, a whole lot of empty seats.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

What semi regular event draws more than 30,000 people? When was the last time the stamps sold out a game? You'd have a similar situation to what you see in BC, a whole lot of empty seats.

Stamps don't sell out because they play in a dump and it's cold out and Calgarians like me are wusses

[RyLucky]

Where is succeeds:

-stadium aesthetics
-community integration, very multimodal, no surface wasted on parking

Where it fails:

-wastes an opportunity to realign Bow Trail (the greatest possible public benefit for the area)
-West Village will not succeed as a viable community with such a small and isolated portion of the land devoted to residential.
-Capacity change is only appreciable to boxes, making pro-sports less accessible and more financially viable for ownership group in Calgary ESPECIALLY when we have two perfectly good stadiums with a similar magnitude of capacity.
-In light of the first three points, the ownership group ought to pay a far higher proportion of the cost; less from Calgarians

All and all, the "vision" seems a little out of touch, but a good start.

[Fuzz]

I look at one of the problems with the residential portion on the west side. It's going to end up fairly isolated between the river, Crowchild, the complex, 14th st, CPR, LRT, Bow Trail...lots of barriers.