Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Because knowledge of the soil conditions isn't 100%.

When they bored the tunnel for Link in Seattle, they discovered void spaces well after the completion - when subsidence occurred at the surface...

There's unknown risk...

Knowledge of the soil conditions at Clarke Hill were known such that "...these materials will flow immediately upon exposure...(r)apid support of these materials and ground improvement are required...," to quote directly from the Geotechnical Baseline Report that formed part of the contract document SNC signed. Were appropriate measures taken?

By reference to the Seattle Beacon Hill situation, are you suggesting we should be prepared for more Evergreen sinkholes next week, next month, or next year, but underneath somebody's house this time, instead of in a controlled situation at a secured location?

Yes, there are unknown risks. But there are are also known risks, with carefully proscribed methods to avoid or reduce them.

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Indeed. Its hilarious that people here whine and complain that SNC is doing a crappy job. Well do any of those whiners actually have experience managing a tunnel boring project anywhere in the world? Like seriously, this reeks desire for instant gratification. Whatever happened to facing tough challenges and can do attitude? SNC is faced with a problem and they are tackling it head on. Are they whining like cry babies now that their profits are being affected? I don't think so.

People really just need to chill. It will be done when its done, just like any project that is facing challenges. And when it is all said and done, I'm sure this will be a great Engineering Marvel story to be featured in the Discovery Channel one of these days.

You could hardly be more off the mark. Perhaps it is intentional deflection?

None of us are looking for or expecting "instant gratification." I and and a few others here are simply asking questions whether major public works are being built properly and according to carefully developed plans, by prudent professionals, without too much influence from the profit motive.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

You could hardly be more off the mark. Perhaps it is intentional deflection? (NO, just giving SNC benefit of the doubt)

None of us are looking for or expecting "instant gratification." I and and a few others here are simply asking questions whether major public works are being built properly (YES) and according to carefully developed plans (YES), by prudent professionals (YES), without too much influence from the profit motive (NO, profit motive is the sole influence for ANY form of business except those that are non-profit organizations.... its Econ 101).

Answers in bold...

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Answers in bold...

Dear Queetz

If you define profit not merely in strict monetary terms but in terms of attaining some reward, then there is no such thing as a non-profit organization.

If someone is paid in "human satisfaction" for what he/she does (like a Mother Teresa) then the idea that there need be no reward falls away. She wouldn't have done it except for what it brought her.

There is a great deal more to profit than just money.

To quote the Borg : "You humans think in such three dimensional terms"

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Dear Queetz

If you define profit not merely in strict monetary terms but in terms of attaining some reward, then there is no such thing as a non-profit organization.

If someone is paid in "human satisfaction" for what he/she does (like a Mother Teresa) then the idea that there need be no reward falls away. She wouldn't have done it except for what it brought her.

There is a great deal more to profit than just money.

To quote the Borg : "You humans think in such three dimensional terms"

Technically, what you are trying to define is "satisfaction", not "profit". Profit is, by definition, more revenue than cost. If cost is more, then you are at a loss. Profit is strictly monetary, nothing to do with goodie goodie feelings. Again, Econ 101...

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Technically, what you are trying to define is "satisfaction", not "profit". Profit is, by definition, more revenue than cost. If cost is more, then you are at a loss. Profit is strictly monetary, nothing to do with goodie goodie feelings. Again, Econ 101...

That is the basic view of profit that is the easiest to understand. There are many long term financial reasons that a business will choose to undertake actions that are not immediately the most profitable in terms of revenue - expenses.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That is the basic view of profit that is the easiest to understand. There are many long term financial reasons that a business will choose to undertake actions that are not immediately the most profitable in terms of revenue - expenses.

WarrenC12, the reality though is that "Wall Street"/"Bay Street" investors in search of profitable short-term financial quarterly results will generally (on average) not tolerate such long-term/long range thinking!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

WarrenC12, the reality though is that "Wall Street"/"Bay Street" investors in search of profitable short-term financial quarterly results will generally (on average) not tolerate such long-term/long range thinking!

Of course, but there are many examples to the contrary.

If you consider something like Evergreen, a highly sensitive public project, SNC may be willing to make some monetary concessions in order to save face.

For example, if they are bidding on another huge project (say, GMT or Patullo replacement), they don't want to leave a bad taste in the mouth of the public or the government in order to keep doing business in the region.

It's never black and white.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Of course, but there are many examples to the contrary.

If you consider something like Evergreen, a highly sensitive public project, SNC may be willing to make some monetary concessions in order to save face. For example, if they are bidding on another huge project (say, GMT or Patullo replacement), they don't want to leave a bad taste in the mouth of the public or the government in order to keep doing business in the region. It's never black and white.

Of course the difference here is that we are dealing with a construction culture that is heavily directed/influenced by governmental outcome values in terms of public sector girded infrastructure development as opposed to strictly a private sector driven one!

[Jimbo604]

Source: Evergreen line Webcam

Today there is a crane working in the upper right..

Next Monday is Mid-August.. will drilling resume??

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If you consider something like Evergreen, a highly sensitive public project, SNC may be willing to make some monetary concessions in order to save face.

For example, if they are bidding on another huge project (say, GMT or Patullo replacement), they don't want to leave a bad taste in the mouth of the public or the government in order to keep doing business in the region.

It's not even just if they want to bid on another contract here. What they do here affects their reputation all over the world.

[finalcoolman]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

Source: Evergreen line Webcam

Today there is a crane working in the upper right..

Next Monday is Mid-August.. will drilling resume??

Nothing to do with drilling, they are just removing the steel frame that was used to launch the TBM:

http://egrtconstruction.ca/wp-content/up...-the-North-Tunnel-Portal-Area-FINAL1.pdf

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Answers in bold...

You answer plainly and assertively that the tunnel is indeed being built according to plan, i.e. to the specifications of the Geotechnical Baseline Report. Firstly, this suggests strongly that you are an insider, not just a cheerleader, which is interesting.

Secondly, could you please provide some detail on the grout walls that were installed at Chateau Place and at Cecile Drive before TBM maintenance stops, because I don't remember anything at those early sites that was remotely similar to the massive efforts on Clarke Road.

TIA

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

You answer plainly and assertively that the tunnel is indeed being built according to plan, i.e. to the specifications of the Geotechnical Baseline Report. Firstly, this suggests strongly that you are an insider, not just a cheerleader, which is interesting.

Secondly, could you please provide some detail on the grout walls that were installed at Chateau Place and at Cecile Drive before TBM maintenance stops, because I don't remember anything at those early sites that was remotely similar to the massive efforts on Clarke Road.

TIA

I will neither confirm nor deny but with regards to providing details to things like grout walls, as I mentioned before, anybody who works for such a company would be subject to a non-disclosure agreement. Violating that agreement will entail termination of employment and legal reprecussions....

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

It's not even just if they want to bid on another contract here. What they do here affects their reputation all over the world.

SNC has already been mired by major controversies with the incidents in Libya, Bangladesh and even in their home town of Montreal. But it has not prevented them from winning contracts. And with regards to Evergreen, they did learn from Canada Line and made significant improvements to the public relations side of the Evergreen Line, so much so I personally think its over kill.

WRT tunneling issues, these would be anticipated as part of their risk assessment. Sh*t happens and while contractors hope for the best, they prepare for the worse. The mere fact that work goes on despite a sinkhole here and there, as oppose to them just abandoning the project, shows that. It is not without precedent that lesser experienced contractors just abandon a building project simply because of a simple snag.

SNC is doing its best and when the Evergreen Line goes into service, people will no longer dwell on the sinkholes or delays. And I anticipate SNC and its partners will be doing the Surrey LRT and Broadway Line subway when those projects comes to fruition simply because they are the most qualified and experienced contractor for this region.

[finalcoolman]

Ok, I am going to try to make it as clear as possible. They knew they probably SHOULD build the grout walls based off of geotechnical engineering reports. But grout walls cost money. SNC's management said NO, hoping the ground had sufficient integrity to just stay put. It was a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 that COULD have paid off, lots of saved money not building those grout walls, paying those traffic control people 24/7 if the ground did stay put.

However they bet wrong. If they bet right (to building the grout walls), construction of these walls would have begun over a year ago, so they would have been complete before the TBM arrived at each of these maintenance spots, resulting in no delays.

However, when you have to build the grout walls AFTER the fact, of course it pushes back the whole critical path of the timeline, waiting for these walls to be completed, and now instead of just having to pay for the grout walls, they will also have to pay penalties for late completion.

I need to point out, these decisions were made during the bidding process. SNC and their bean counters already decided AGAINST the grout walls before they were even awarded the contract. You have to understand, this is likely a factor that allowed them to ARTIFICALLY put in a lower bid than the Bombardier consortium. Maybe the Bombardier one included building the grout walls and that is one of the reasons it was more expensive, we may never know. However while artificially undercutting the other bidder works to get the bid, now that SNC is being forced to build these grout walls, which their initial bid never factored in the cost for, they are basically having to pay for them out of pocket, which is what is hurting their profits.

[Ridgerunner]

SNC is doing its best and when the Evergreen Line goes into service, people will no longer dwell on the sinkholes or delays. And I anticipate SNC and its partners will be doing the Surrey LRT and Broadway Line subway when those projects comes to fruition simply because they are the most qualified and experienced contractor for this region. [/QUOTE]

So .. the next question ... do we get a start before or after the provincial election in 2017?

If it is Christy again, then does she delay Broadway/UBC out of spite, in favour of more useless roads and bridges for the suburbs.

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

Ok, I am going to try to make it as clear as possible. They knew they probably SHOULD build the grout walls based off of geotechnical engineering reports. But grout walls cost money. SNC's management said NO, hoping the ground had sufficient integrity to just stay put. It was a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 that COULD have paid off, lots of saved money not building those grout walls, paying those traffic control people 24/7 if the ground did stay put.

However they bet wrong. If they bet right (to building the grout walls), construction of these walls would have begun over a year ago, so they would have been complete before the TBM arrived at each of these maintenance spots, resulting in no delays.

However, when you have to build the grout walls AFTER the fact, of course it pushes back the whole critical path of the timeline, waiting for these walls to be completed, and now instead of just having to pay for the grout walls, they will also have to pay penalties for late completion.

I need to point out, these decisions were made during the bidding process. SNC and their bean counters already decided AGAINST the grout walls before they were even awarded the contract. You have to understand, this is likely a factor that allowed them to ARTIFICALLY put in a lower bid than the Bombardier consortium. Maybe the Bombardier one included building the grout walls and that is one of the reasons it was more expensive, we may never know. However while artificially undercutting the other bidder works to get the bid, now that SNC is being forced to build these grout walls, which their initial bid never factored in the cost for, they are basically having to pay for them out of pocket, which is what is hurting their profits.

Right on. Now we're having a real discussion.

But, aside from hurting SNC's bottom line, isn't there still the question of professions ethics IF they willfully disregarded the geotechnical recommendations (more like requirements than recommendations) to save a buck? That's what I can't put out of my mind until and unless I have more facts. I emphatically do not want to make any accusations without adequate information.

[VanCvl]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

Right on. Now we're having a real discussion.

But, aside from hurting SNC's bottom line, isn't there still the question of professions ethics IF they willfully disregarded the geotechnical recommendations (more like requirements than recommendations) to save a buck? That's what I can't put out of my mind until and unless I have more facts. I emphatically do not want to make any accusations without adequate information.

Not at all. If you were a geotechnical engineer writing the baseline report you would recommend the most conservative approach because if you're wrong then there is all sort of liability - plus the fact that Engineers are typically conservative and some tend to over design.

Contractors see the same bore hole samples and make their own conclusions and determine methodologies based on their experience and equipment. Everyone understands that the bore holes are indicative but not a total representation of the ground conditions.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

..
I need to point out, these decisions were made during the bidding process. SNC and their bean counters already decided AGAINST the grout walls before they were even awarded the contract. You have to understand, this is likely a factor that allowed them to ARTIFICALLY put in a lower bid than the Bombardier consortium. Maybe the Bombardier one included building the grout walls and that is one of the reasons it was more expensive, we may never know. However while artificially undercutting the other bidder works to get the bid, now that SNC is being forced to build these grout walls, which their initial bid never factored in the cost for, they are basically having to pay for them out of pocket, which is what is hurting their profits.

My only comment is that their bid was not "artificially" low - it would have been, in fact, lower.

"Artificially" suggests a bait and switch, but here, SNC accepted the risk and will bear the cost.

I'd say their assessment caused them to submit a "riskier" lower bid...

[s211]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

Right on. Now we're having a real discussion.

But, aside from hurting SNC's bottom line, isn't there still the question of professions ethics IF they willfully disregarded the geotechnical recommendations (more like requirements than recommendations) to save a buck? That's what I can't put out of my mind until and unless I have more facts. I emphatically do not want to make any accusations without adequate information.

Are you related to ridgerunner? I'm trying to understand what's to be gained by a witch hunt. What result are you hoping to achieve, and do you think that your hunt will have any possible affect on any kind of outcome you're looking for? Otherwise, it's all just wind and rhetoric.

Again, I have ZERO involvement in this project, but I find the hoards with pitchforks looking for someone to string up somewhat baffling, if not unfortunately comic.