Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The Broadway line when it gets to UBC will finally be completed, due date 2020. What will it take to get it built? The CoV paying for 1/3rd of it out of debt?

A quote from that article: "...Canadian municipalities tend to use their debt financing powers wisely to pay for necessary improvements, such as roads, utilities and public amenities like community centres and libraries. That is largely because provincial governments regulate how much debt cities can take on, and cities - unlike their provincial or federal counterparts - must balance their budgets. As a result, Canadian municipalities tend to be healthier, better run and better credit risks than those in the United States..."

That said it looks like Vancouver is going to have to start raising property taxes to pay for the debt it already has - and it'll have to keep raising it if it wants the UBC Line to a bored tunnel.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Sheba

A quote from that article: "...Canadian municipalities tend to use their debt financing powers wisely to pay for necessary improvements, such as roads, utilities and public amenities like community centres and libraries. That is largely because provincial governments regulate how much debt cities can take on, and cities - unlike their provincial or federal counterparts - must balance their budgets. As a result, Canadian municipalities tend to be healthier, better run and better credit risks than those in the United States..."

That said it looks like Vancouver is going to have to start raising property taxes to pay for the debt it already has - and it'll have to keep raising it if it wants the UBC Line to a bored tunnel.

Considering how ridiculously high property values in Vancouver are and low the property taxes are in relation to it, the city doesn't have to raise the property tax that much in order to have the funding to pay any debt related expense for its share of the Broadway Line.

Canada's Highest, Lowest Property Tax

The Real Property Association of Canada (REALpac) has released new numbers on property tax rates across the country, and of major cities surveyed, Vancouver came in with the lowest property tax rate.

But the tax rate is just part of the story; ultimately what you pay depends on your home’s assessed value.

So we took REALpac’s numbers and crunched them with the Canadian Real Estate Association’s estimates of average house prices. That gives us an approximate idea of what an average property tax bill will look like in Canada’s major cities after the next round of assessments.

And guess what? Vancouver still comes out as the lowest property tax jurisdiction. The average property tax bill there works out to $2,322 per year.

So there you have it, folks. At the end of the day, the resistance of Vancouver raising property tax to pay for its share is nothing more than the usual self entitlement and "I want this service but have everyone else pay for it" attitude...

[casper]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Use-it-or-lose-it is how the US does things, and that's how everyone manages to build inadequate poorly planned light rail. Who cares that the funding might dry up next year, the gub'mint is gonna fund us right now!

Like realistically, the federal government in the US isn't vetting projects. We don't need that in Canada. That is a waste of tax dollars to fund infrastructure-to-nowhere. Like even today there is still criticism about the Millennium Line because it was politically driven, and only 1/3rd of it was built because of politics. When the Evergreen line is completed, that will make 2/3rds of it complete, again due to politics. The Broadway line when it gets to UBC will finally be completed, due date 2020. What will it take to get it built? The CoV paying for 1/3rd of it out of debt?

I would not describe the Millennium Line as a "Bridge to Nowhere". It is an extension onto and integrated with the Expo line. When Millennium Line was proposed it was with goal of eventually getting to UBC as funding became available.

What other option did they have, build a stretch of skytrain not physically connected the existing line and create new rail yards etc. to support it? Build it as an extension connected at Broadway station?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Considering how ridiculously high property values in Vancouver are and low the property taxes are in relation to it, the city doesn't have to raise the property tax that much in order to have the funding to pay any debt related expense for its share of the Broadway Line.

There seems to be a lot of misconception about how property taxes work. People seem to think that if your property is worth a lot of money then that must mean you have to pay a lot of property tax. But that is not true.

The city sets a budget amount each year, and then the property tax rate is set to an amount which will produce the needed amount of money. The assessed values of the properties are only used to prorate how much tax you pay compared what your neighbors and other owners in the city pay. If my property is worth twice as much as my neighbor's, then I pay twice as much as he does. But that's based on the relative difference between our assessments, not on their absolute values. We would pay the same amount of property tax if his and my assessments were $100,000/$200,000 or if they were $1,000,000/$2,000,000. In other words, the value of my land has no direct link with how much property tax I pay - the only bearing it has is how it compares to the average property value in the city.

Vancouver's property values are very high - but that doesn't automatically give the city a windfall in property taxes. Because the values are high, to generate the same amount of revenue the city must set the rate low. If prices go down by 50% next year then the rate will double and we'll all still end up paying the same tax (subject to a budget increase, of course).

It's wrongheaded to think that the city has some sort of inherent right to tax Vancouver property owners more than other cities do just because the properties here are expensive. The only valid reason to raise taxes would be if the City needs to spend more money - and of course they have to answer to the voters if they capriciously decide to do that.

And the estimate of the average property tax bill as being ~$2300 per year is crazy. My tax bill is almost 50% more than that and my assessed value is well under what I'm always hearing as the "average house price" in Vancouver. Edit: maybe it includes condos?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by casper

I would not describe the Millennium Line as a "Bridge to Nowhere". It is an extension onto and integrated with the Expo line. When Millennium Line was proposed it was with goal of eventually getting to UBC as funding became available.

What other option did they have, build a stretch of skytrain not physically connected the existing line and create new rail yards etc. to support it? Build it as an extension connected at Broadway station?

It would have made sense to have a Wye/switch at Broadway and run the UBC subway before the part we call the Millennium Line was built straight through to where the Evergreen line goes now instead of having people transfer at Broadway. But I also imagine in this fictional alternate-Vancouver they would have had the same argument about "why does Vancouver get a metro that only serves CoV?"

In all likeliness this alternate universe Vancouver would not have extended the Skytrain to Surrey before it.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

There seems to be a lot of misconception about how property taxes work. People seem to think that if your property is worth a lot of money then that must mean you have to pay a lot of property tax. But that is not true.

Yes all very true.

However I'm not sure how the Translink portion is calculated. Mine shows up as a rate of 0.00032030 on the value of my property. I imagine that is uniform across Vancouver, but what about Burnaby, Surrey, etc?

If we are all paying the same % rate for Translink, it would seem that Vancouver is already paying the lions share of property tax towards transit, since the values are so much higher.

If not, is it calculated on population? land mass?

Can anyone else confirm what rate they are paying and where?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Kisai

It would have made sense to have a Wye/switch at Broadway and run the UBC subway before the part we call the Millennium Line was built straight through to where the Evergreen line goes now instead of having people transfer at Broadway. But I also imagine in this fictional alternate-Vancouver they would have had the same argument about "why does Vancouver get a metro that only serves CoV?"

In all likeliness this alternate universe Vancouver would not have extended the Skytrain to Surrey before it.

In Vancouver Skytrain has only been a catalyst for redevelopment and densification at Joyce St Station. When look at Burnaby, New West and Surrey it has a strong impact with creating new high density transit friendly development.

Developers proposed building a high rise development over the Grandview cut, just never went anywhere due to local neighborhood objection.

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Use-it-or-lose-it is how the US does things, and that's how everyone manages to build inadequate poorly planned light rail. Who cares that the funding might dry up next year, the gub'mint is gonna fund us right now!

Like realistically, the federal government in the US isn't vetting projects. We don't need that in Canada. That is a waste of tax dollars to fund infrastructure-to-nowhere. Like even today there is still criticism about the Millennium Line because it was politically driven, and only 1/3rd of it was built because of politics. When the Evergreen line is completed, that will make 2/3rds of it complete, again due to politics. The Broadway line when it gets to UBC will finally be completed, due date 2020. What will it take to get it built? The CoV paying for 1/3rd of it out of debt?

this is not how projects are funded in the usa. most stuff goes through a federal grant application like new start or tiger or whatever, a project in a given city is scored and projects "win" funding. it's competitive and funding is rescinded when conditions aren't met (delays, shortcuts, lack of matching funding, etc). that's how almost everything works with the federal government down here. what you're thinking of is the phenomenon of "riders" slipped into legislation by powerful members of congress to benefit their districts. this has pretty much stopped over the past few years, but you did get some pretty interesting projects out of it, for sure.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by casper

Developers proposed building a high rise development over the Grandview cut, just never went anywhere due to local neighborhood objection.

Didn't know that. How could anyone oppose tunneling the tracks under towers? Towers have already been steadily entering the area and will only continue to do so. Wouldn't it be the best to have them placed on top of the tracks and reduce noise from the Skytrain.

[Ridgerunner]

With the recent announcement of SNC Lavelin's earnings impairment due to the tunnel on the Evergreen Line ..

It is now almost impossible for them to be finished before Spring 2017. My estimate is February or March of 2017.

That means that there is no way for any announcement on the Broadway line either before the next election (also in 2017) or as an election issue.

With the subsidence issues, it is almost impossible for the line to go to UBC, Arbutus or Burrard will be the terminus.

Now .. with all the CYA going on with the current construction of the Evergreen line, you can bet that no construction will take place in Broadway until somewhere between 50,000 and 550,000 bore holes will have been drilled.

Okay, so I exaggerated the number of bore holes by a few ... but you can believe that CYA will be order of the day .. with another TBM scheduled for that extension, you can bet that the contractors and the politicians will insist on a bore hole every 5 feet.

Between the two factors of a provincial election and bore hole mania, actual start of the Broadway line is now 2019 and finish is 2024.

And this time, responsibility for tunneling delays will shift to Translink.

The experience of Big Bertha and Big Alice (2 of the "biggest TBMs in the world) will also migrate the thinking towards either a twin line line of 6 meters each or some CYA cut and cover.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

With the subsidence issues, it is almost impossible for the line to go to UBC, Arbutus or Burrard will be the terminus.

...and that ain't bad.

As for the delay, I think Broadway Line and other projects will start sooner than you think, with Peter Fassbender now in charge of Translink with his preference for property tax increases, which requires no referendum and is far easier to implement than any other funding scheme. Add to that the great Gregor Robertson's willingness for his city to go it alone, we should be in good hands.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

With the recent announcement of SNC Lavelin's earnings impairment due to the tunnel on the Evergreen Line ..

It is now almost impossible for them to be finished before Spring 2017. My estimate is February or March of 2017.

That means that there is no way for any announcement on the Broadway line either before the next election (also in 2017) or as an election issue.

With the subsidence issues, it is almost impossible for the line to go to UBC, Arbutus or Burrard will be the terminus.

Now .. with all the CYA going on with the current construction of the Evergreen line, you can bet that no construction will take place in Broadway until somewhere between 50,000 and 550,000 bore holes will have been drilled.

Okay, so I exaggerated the number of bore holes by a few ... but you can believe that CYA will be order of the day .. with another TBM scheduled for that extension, you can bet that the contractors and the politicians will insist on a bore hole every 5 feet.

Between the two factors of a provincial election and bore hole mania, actual start of the Broadway line is now 2019 and finish is 2024.

And this time, responsibility for tunneling delays will shift to Translink.

The experience of Big Bertha and Big Alice (2 of the "biggest TBMs in the world) will also migrate the thinking towards either a twin line line of 6 meters each or some CYA cut and cover.

The amount of test holes/drill holes required for Broadway will be dependant on the underlying soil/rock. I doubt the Evergreen experience will affect any planning for portions of Broadway that are rock. The problems on the Evergreen route (and Big Bertha) are large bore tunnels in relatively 'loose' (poorly consolidated) soils, not when it is rock. Without looking it up (there are maps that show basic geological layers for Vancouver) I would assume any bored tunnel on Broadway will be in the underlying rock. It may influence any portions that are in till (soil).

I no longer have any hope the Broadway line will start any time soon. Pretty sure Christy will kill any attempt while she is in Victoria.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Rico

The amount of test holes/drill holes required for Broadway will be dependant on the underlying soil/rock. I doubt the Evergreen experience will affect any planning for portions of Broadway that are rock. The problems on the Evergreen route (and Big Bertha) are large bore tunnels in relatively 'loose' (poorly consolidated) soils, not when it is rock. Without looking it up (there are maps that show basic geological layers for Vancouver) I would assume any bored tunnel on Broadway will be in the underlying rock. It may influence any portions that are in till (soil).

I no longer have any hope the Broadway line will start any time soon. Pretty sure Christy will kill any attempt while she is in Victoria.

Still trying to figure out which intelligent electorate voted in the Clark administration and why?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Still trying to figure out which intelligent electorate voted in the Clark administration and why?

Not really, I do think she is a terrible Premier (currently tied with Glen Clark as the worst in my lifetime) but I realize many people could have legitimate reasons to vote for her.....but it is obvious she is profoundly anti transit (although she won't say it) and will place as many road blocks to transit spending as she can.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by Rico

Not really, I do think she is a terrible Premier (currently tied with Glen Clark as the worst in my lifetime) but I realize many people could have legitimate reasons to vote for her.....but it is obvious she is profoundly anti transit (although she won't say it) and will place as many road blocks to transit spending as she can.

I would say more than anti-transit she is anti-Vancouver which is dangerous for our economy. Very unlike her predecessor in her anti-urban and anti-transit mentality.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

With the recent announcement of SNC Lavelin's earnings impairment due to the tunnel on the Evergreen Line ..

It is now almost impossible for them to be finished before Spring 2017. My estimate is February or March of 2017.

That means that there is no way for any announcement on the Broadway line either before the next election (also in 2017) or as an election issue.

With the subsidence issues, it is almost impossible for the line to go to UBC, Arbutus or Burrard will be the terminus.

Now .. with all the CYA going on with the current construction of the Evergreen line, you can bet that no construction will take place in Broadway until somewhere between 50,000 and 550,000 bore holes will have been drilled.

Okay, so I exaggerated the number of bore holes by a few ... but you can believe that CYA will be order of the day .. with another TBM scheduled for that extension, you can bet that the contractors and the politicians will insist on a bore hole every 5 feet.

Between the two factors of a provincial election and bore hole mania, actual start of the Broadway line is now 2019 and finish is 2024.

And this time, responsibility for tunneling delays will shift to Translink.

The experience of Big Bertha and Big Alice (2 of the "biggest TBMs in the world) will also migrate the thinking towards either a twin line line of 6 meters each or some CYA cut and cover.

For the love of all things holy, I have NO clue what the points of your posts are. What are you possibly trying to achieve? For the record, I have no vested interest in the Evergreen line, and am puzzled with your hyperbolic search for heads to be lopped off. And with that, you have just joined my ignore list, reserved for only the most aggravating posters.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by csbvan

I would say more than anti-transit she is anti-Vancouver which is dangerous for our economy. Very unlike her predecessor in her anti-urban and anti-transit mentality.

....how about anti the poor (as seen in how she treated the K-12 public school education strike recently)!? That aside every educated first grader knows that inadequate transportation and congestion cripples the economy!

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by s211

For the love of all things holy, I have NO clue what the points of your posts are. What are you possibly trying to achieve? For the record, I have no vested interest in the Evergreen line, and am puzzled with your hyperbolic search for heads to be lopped off. And with that, you have just joined my ignore list, reserved for only the most aggravating posters.

Pain makes man think.
Thought makes man wise.
Wisdom makes life endurable.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by csbvan

I would say more than anti-transit she is anti-Vancouver which is dangerous for our economy. Very unlike her predecessor in her anti-urban and anti-transit mentality.

I wouldn't say she is anti-transit as she did make the Evergreen Line possible. Nor would I say she is anti-Vancouver but it is Vancouver that is anti-Christy. Note that the Province is still committed to its share, so Vancouver simply has to pony up their share for the Broadway Line.

But she owes Vancouver nothing and as the saying goes, you reap what you sow. It would have helped if Vancouver-Point Grey wasn't so self centred and relied on the survey to vote for an NDP candidate to ensure they have an MLA in a sitting government. If they simply took a leap of faith, or better yet, realize that the BC NDP was a big mistake after Adrian Dix's infamous Kinder Morgan commentary, not only would they have had an MLA in a sitting government, but a Premier at that. Which should more than be enough to push for the Broadway Line, maybe even cancel the referendum altogether.

As for the economy, the BC economy as a whole still relies mostly on natural resources, which is mostly, if not all outside of the Metro Vancouver region. It will take a lot of really innovative companies enough to fill many tall office towers that will make BC not so reliant on wood and mining, but we are not even close to there yet even if every currently proposed office project is filled to the brim.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by csbvan

I would say more than anti-transit she is anti-Vancouver which is dangerous for our economy. Very unlike her predecessor in her anti-urban and anti-transit mentality.

Yes, this. Literally seems to hate the economic heart of the province, while pushing remote, far off plans like LNG.