Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Don't you mean "ten-lane bridge"???

Ten-lane bridge with a tunnel up McBride to bring back the Stormont Connector!

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

... And the best part is it will come to a vote so Vancouver taxpayers actually get a say on it, and if they don't want it, it will be their own fault.

Love the spin... or maybe you're just don't have the following information).

No it doesn't require still another vote if council makes the decision to do it via debt.

http://www.cknw.com/2015/07/02/stone-to-mayors-figure-it-out/

Transportation Minister Todd Stone is telling Metro Vancouver mayors to “head back to the drawing board”, and figure out how they are going to pay for transit and transportation improvements across the region.

...

He also kept emphasizing the mayors can raise property tax to pay for transit and transportation.

Stone stressed raising property taxes requires no referendum and no permission from the province.

And with that, we’re exactly right back to where we were before this entire process started.

[WarrenC12]

As I understand it, the Translink portion of property taxes can only be raised 3% per year. Additional authority to raise more would have to come from the provincial government.

For the general portion, yes I imagine city councils have the ability to raise that to an "unlimited" amount. At their own dire peril...

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

As I understand it, the Translink portion of property taxes can only be raised 3% per year. Additional authority to raise more would have to come from the provincial government.

For the general portion, yes I imagine city councils have the ability to raise that to an "unlimited" amount. At their own dire peril...

Would they be funding Translink, that is to say the entire entity which is multi-jurisdictional across municipalities, or just one transportation project?

From the transportation funding backgrounder:

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Document...Transportation_Funding_Backgrounder.ashx

Any increase to property tax revenue above 3% requires approval of the Mayors’ Council.

Would the Mayor's Council turn down one member raising their own taxes, or even have a vote if it was through a debt offering?

[GlassCity]

This is why I didn't like the property tax idea. All 22 municipalities will never agree to all raise property taxes together, and it would be unfair for Vancouver taxpayers to fund a line that will be very important to people from all over the region.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This is why I didn't like the property tax idea. All 22 municipalities will never agree to all raise property taxes together, and it would be unfair for Vancouver taxpayers to fund a line that will be very important to people from all over the region.

Why would it be unfair since municipalities funded things like the Canada Line and trolley buses that benefit mostly just the city of Vancouver? Plus it is CoV that pushes the Broadway Line as a very expensive bored tunneled subway even though cheaper alternatives are available (i.e. elevated or cut and cover). Its not like you're paying for it either, the only ones that will pay are those that will benefit from it directly via increase in property values due to yet again by a new transit line in their city.

Again, the line is just an enhancement, somebody from Broadway station can still get to UBC with the Broadway buses within a reasonable time frame. Get passed by one bus, another arrives in a few minutes. But given that a Surrey Kwatlen student can get to a post secondary school faster than transit by running, that is where the justification for new rapid transit lies.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

As I understand it, the Translink portion of property taxes can only be raised 3% per year. Additional authority to raise more would have to come from the provincial government.

For the general portion, yes I imagine city councils have the ability to raise that to an "unlimited" amount. At their own dire peril...

Translink itself can raise the property tax 3% per year without any further approval. Any additional raises need to be approved by the Mayor's Council, not the Province. The Mayors Council itself can raise it to an unlimited amount for Translink to pay for Sktrain which covers all 22 municipalities, including bridges and tunnels to connect those across bodies of water (or pay all Translink employees $10 million per year).

Mayors within the cities themselves can also raise it to an unlimited amount, which they do so anyway to pay for their pet projects. If the CoV wants a maglev rail line from Cityhall to Canada Place, then can raise their own property taxes by over a 100% a year to pay for it. If Surrey wants to build a city owned supertall skyscraper, they can also pay for it by raising their property taxes to whatever amount they need.

[WarrenC12]

^^^^^^ You sure have a warped view of reality.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Why would it be unfair since municipalities funded things like the Canada Line and trolley buses that benefit mostly just the city of Vancouver? Plus it is CoV that pushes the Broadway Line as a very expensive bored tunneled subway even though cheaper alternatives are available (i.e. elevated or cut and cover). Its not like you're paying for it either, the only ones that will pay are those that will benefit from it directly via increase in property values due to yet again by a new transit line in their city.

Again, the line is just an enhancement, somebody from Broadway station can still get to UBC with the Broadway buses within a reasonable time frame. Get passed by one bus, another arrives in a few minutes. But given that a Surrey Kwatlen student can get to a post secondary school faster than transit by running, that is where the justification for new rapid transit lies.

What if we replaced Fraser Highway with a B-Line every 2 minutes? After all, if rapid buses are good enough for Broadway it must be good enough for Surrey.

And the Canada Line was absolutely massive for Richmond, as well as South Delta and South Surrey. I grew up in Richmond, and the Canada Line was just huge for us. It works both ways too. I pay the extra gas tax that gave Coquitlam the Evergreen Line, even though I will literally never use it. We're a co-dependent region, and we help each other out. Arguably, any rapid transit improvement in Vancouver is more useful overall as people from all over the region must travel into Vancouver at least occasionally. The same can't be said for Coquitlam. All these suburban lines are useless if they don't lead to somewhere many people need to go. I just don't think it's fair that a line with 50% of its passengers from outside Vancouver will be paid for only by Vancouver. And yes, this improved mobility is the real benefit, not increased property values.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Why would it be unfair since municipalities funded things like the Canada Line and trolley buses that benefit mostly just the city of Vancouver?

As a international visitor to Vancouver I'm happy that the Canada line can take me from YVR to my family in the cities of New Westminster and Burnaby, so it's not primarily for the benefit of "Vancouver alone"!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Why would it be unfair since municipalities funded things like the Canada Line and trolley buses that benefit mostly just the city of Vancouver? Plus it is CoV that pushes the Broadway Line as a very expensive bored tunneled subway even though cheaper alternatives are available (i.e. elevated or cut and cover).

Don't quote me on this, but I read somewhere that CoV was going to pay the difference for it to be a bored tunnel. Can anyone find and confirm that info?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

What if we replaced Fraser Highway with a B-Line every 2 minutes? After all, if rapid buses are good enough for Broadway it must be good enough for Surrey.

Pretty please can somewhere other than Rome, I mean Vancouver, get frequent all-day bus service. I think most areas would be happy with a decent grid network and 15 minute service, with more than that reserved for only a few routes per area. But it'll take a few more decades for that to even begin...

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

What if we replaced Fraser Highway with a B-Line every 2 minutes? After all, if rapid buses are good enough for Broadway it must be good enough for Surrey.

And the Canada Line was absolutely massive for Richmond, as well as South Delta and South Surrey. I grew up in Richmond, and the Canada Line was just huge for us. It works both ways too. I pay the extra gas tax that gave Coquitlam the Evergreen Line, even though I will literally never use it. We're a co-dependent region, and we help each other out. Arguably, any rapid transit improvement in Vancouver is more useful overall as people from all over the region must travel into Vancouver at least occasionally. The same can't be said for Coquitlam. All these suburban lines are useless if they don't lead to somewhere many people need to go. I just don't think it's fair that a line with 50% of its passengers from outside Vancouver will be paid for only by Vancouver. And yes, this improved mobility is the real benefit, not increased property values.

If B-Line EVERY TWO MINUTES, are you kidding me? Of course it would be good enough for Surrey! That service would be wonderful! LETS DO EEET!!!

At the end of the day, I don't see why people are complaining that Vancouver ends up paying its share for the Broadway Line. Regional taxpayers still pay for it via Federal and Provincial taxes, so the required punishment for those not being lucky to be rich enough to live in Vancouver is still fulfilled. Plus there would be less regional politics, and the line can be built SOONER! Isn't that what you all want? Building Broadway Line SOONER?????

[dubsH]

Then the Evergreen Line should've never even been built if the Tri-Cities did not cough up the money to pay for the line. Or perhaps there's a way to retroactively add a property tax increase specifically for those who are going to be benefiting the most from the Evergreen Line: Tri-Cities residents. Maybe a $5 AddFare for anyone using the Evergreen portion only.

This is exactly like the mayor of Burnaby complaining about paying for other cities' rapid transit lines AFTER his own city undeservedly had two lines built. Few sensible people would argue against the idea that the Evergreen Line should NOT have been built prior to the Broadway extension - but that's already in the past. If each Vancouver/Richmond/North Shore/SoF resident had taken the very same stance that "you should fund the line yourself", the Evergreen Line would not have taken off, and rightly so.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by dubsH

If each Vancouver/Richmond/North Shore/SoF resident had taken the very same stance that "you should fund the line yourself", the Evergreen Line would not have taken off, and rightly so.

If Translink didn't exist, this is exactly what would happen. That's why I don't want to see anything "change" at Translink that would let the Mayors do this kind of nonsense.

Like I hate to imagine the piece-meal system that would be in place if Translink didn't exist. It would probably involve 10 transfers to get downtown on buses/trains that only run once an hour.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Don't quote me on this, but I read somewhere that CoV was going to pay the difference for it to be a bored tunnel. Can anyone find and confirm that info?

lol the CoV doesn't have a couple hundred million lying around. I don't think it's even proposed for the CoV to pitch in any money for the line.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

But given that a Surrey Kwatlen student can get to a post secondary school faster than transit by running, that is where the justification for new rapid transit lies.

No, that tells us that Surrey Kwantlen was built in the wrong location. It's a bad location for anyone but car drivers.

It would cost a lot less to move Surrey Kwantlen to a better location than to build rapid transit to where it is now.

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Don't quote me on this, but I read somewhere that CoV was going to pay the difference for it to be a bored tunnel. Can anyone find and confirm that info?

http://mayorscouncil.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mayors-Council-Vision-Document-Mar-2015.pdf

Yes COV pays extra for the tunnelling per pg 12 of Mayor's Plan, below the blue box;

...The City of Vancouver will be responsible for the incremental cost associated with any additional tunnelling beyond technical or functional requirements consistent with operational capacity for other rapid transit systems within TransLink. ...

[ClaytonA]

Meanwhile in the vote-buying department from the Conservatives;

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/gr...-gets-1-53b-pledge-from-ottawa-1.3166511

June 18 Toronto, yesterday Ottawa, today Calgary. The NDP and Liberals sound like they might increase the Public Transit fund if they're elected.

How is funding allocated?
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2015/06/18/public-transit-fund

... Federal support will be allocated based on merit, to projects that: significantly reduce urban congestion and travel time; lever significant private sector involvement and expertise and provide value for money for taxpayers’ dollars; and support innovative approaches to project funding, financing, payments structures and delivery models. ...

This is not the federal gas tax allocated equally between regions; how long until all the funding has been allocated and there is none left for Vancouver?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

This is not the federal gas tax allocated equally between regions; how long until all the funding has been allocated and there is none left for Vancouver?

We had a plan, it got voted down. Now we go back to the drawing board while other projects get approved. $1.5B for Calgary, which means their new line must be costing $4.5B?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

How is funding allocated?
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2015/06/18/public-transit-fund

This is not the federal gas tax allocated equally between regions; how long until all the funding has been allocated and there is none left for Vancouver?

Use-it-or-lose-it is how the US does things, and that's how everyone manages to build inadequate poorly planned light rail. Who cares that the funding might dry up next year, the gub'mint is gonna fund us right now!

Like realistically, the federal government in the US isn't vetting projects. We don't need that in Canada. That is a waste of tax dollars to fund infrastructure-to-nowhere. Like even today there is still criticism about the Millennium Line because it was politically driven, and only 1/3rd of it was built because of politics. When the Evergreen line is completed, that will make 2/3rds of it complete, again due to politics. The Broadway line when it gets to UBC will finally be completed, due date 2020. What will it take to get it built? The CoV paying for 1/3rd of it out of debt?