ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

There is a listing now for Eviva Peachtree's added office space with the note that it will be breaking ground August 2015 with occupancy being available 01/2017

There is 37k of office, but they do not want to divide it up so I guess only a single tenant

http://www.showcase.com/b/commercial-rea...Njk4Y2E3M2ExZj+mHhmLQwxTg8z6dy9lKINqarZB

I would love for this to be true but I'm not sure how much stock I would put into this kind of listing.

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i'm kind of glad that went away. i would rather see midtown develop organically into a real neighbourhood; just ensure that buildings have active uses and parking decks are covered up.

What does this even mean? Show me a great city and I'll show you a city with a great plan. Places like Savannah were meticulously planned it didn't just spring up by itself. What we see in such places is the benefit of many years of hindsight, things in developing overtime.

The problem with the "Midtown mile" plan is that it's still not yet physically possible. In Midtown we still don't even have two consecutive blocks with street level retail on both sides of the street. It's impossible to have a shopping district like what is envisioned with that situation.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Martinman

What does this even mean? Show me a great city and I'll show you a city with a great plan. Places like Savannah were meticulously planned it didn't just spring up by itself. What we see in such places is the benefit of many years of hindsight, things in developing overtime.

The problem with the "Midtown mile" plan is that it's still not yet physically possible. In Midtown we still don't even have two consecutive blocks with street level retail on both sides of the street. It's impossible to have a shopping district like what is envisioned with that situation.

I think what BryantM3 is saying is the type of retailers you've noted are not "organic" to this area.

:::::::"I'd have loved to see a Jcrew, Banana republic, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, etc go in. I'd imagine something like an Apple Store would wait for that kind of momentum before going in by itself."::::::::::


Granted there should/will have to be a mix of national and local retailers/restaurants in Midtown, but the names you listed aren't really THAT appealing to those of use who live a few blocks from Peachtree. I'd love to see a mix involve more "walkable" retailers....not something found at Lenox Mall and/or Atlantic Station. We need more bodegas, neighborhood markets, everyday retailers in this area but unfortunately it's a chicken/egg conundrum since some of these developments are overpricing their retail in order to make their deals work. They cow tail to some national retailer(s) who have little to no vetted interest in truly being true part of the neighborhoods they are within. Some retailers like West Elm, Anthropologie, etc (which are under the same company mind you) do a better job at that and are proof in the designs of their stores are more site-specific.

[Ant131531]

No, what Bryan really meant is that he probably thought the Midtown Mile was going to be heavily regulated when it came to design like Atlantic Station and not several different developers developing their own buildings.

Atlantic Station is not organic because it was all developed at once by one developer while Midtown is more organic because it's many developers building apartments and office towers over time. Midtown Mile was going to be built over time however and organic and not like Atlantic Station at all. Midtown Mile was a vision. Atlanta is a city that actually needs stricter urban planning. I'm tired of apartments block sprouting up in random areas that is isolated and doesn't really contribute to the overall city's urban fabric.

If you want to see a city that implemented great urban planning in recent times, go to Portland.

[bryantm3]

in regards to zoning and developing 'organically', what i meant was that i don't think it's in the best interest of the community for zoning laws to try and push a specific development plan (like the midtown mile) onto private owners, especially when such a plan directly benefits high-end national chain stores and seeks to create a destination for commuters and tourists, rather than a liveable neighbourhood for the residents of the community. i don't think it is ethical; it's a clear conflict of interest. who gets the perks should not be determined by who sits on the board.

i think zoning laws should be guided by urbanist goals and principles; things like complete streets, active use at street level, etc., should be a requirement across the city and there should be a loose framework guiding what developers can and cannot do. instead of that, developers pretty much get away with whatever they want to do in poor neighbourhoods, oftentimes to the detriment of the community, and in neighbourhoods dominated by business interests, like midtown, the goals that the DRC have often reflect the needs of big business rather than the community.

however,

[Ant131531]

Why can't Midtown be a destination for residents, tourists, and commuters? Plenty of downtown-like areas with good shopping that is still livable for residents(Chicago's Magnificent Mile area, Downtown SF, Downtown Seattle, several cities in Europe). You just have to plan the neighborhood well.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Why can't Midtown be a destination for residents, tourists, and commuters? Plenty of downtown-like areas with good shopping that is still livable for residents(Chicago's Magnificent Mile area, Downtown SF, Downtown Seattle, several cities in Europe). You just have to plan the neighborhood well.

i don't think the neighbourhood really needs specific project planning if it already has economic development that's pushing the neighbourhood forward. of course land use and how it affects the surrounding environment is important in zoning; for example, a lot of the buildings from the 70s onwards in midtown wouldn't be approved today because of their use of surface lots and lack of active uses— i think that's a good change. but if the midtown alliance and DRC don't have the funding to put into a midtown mile, i don't think they should have the ability to force developers to make storefronts specifically designed for high fashion and luxury. bottom line, retailers are out to make money. if there is a market in midtown for a store like that, they should open there, but if there isn't, there's no reason to force it and end up with a bunch of unaffordable and empty retail spaces that could have been targeted towards more viable options like restaurants, local entrepreneurs, and corner stores.

take a look at some of the greatest neighbourhoods in atlanta, like little five points. nobody really planned that, it just happened. the market did its thing and now L5P is a mecca for all the weirdos like me. i think generally the market will meet the needs of the community, but zoning is an important safeguard to protect the community from overzealous developers. using that ability to promote unfunded pipe dreams and favouring luxury over necessity, i think, is not a proper use of zoning.

this is different, of course, from projects like the MMPT and the capitol green they are planning to build between the capitol and oakland cemetery; the city has already invested money and has bought property to make these things happen; but projects like this are to increase greenspace and connectivity in the metro: legitimate needs that won't be met by private developers.

[jddar]

Moderator please delete

[testarossa50]

Buckhead Atlanta, the resurgence of Atlantic Station, and Ponce City Market have been the death knell for the Midtown Mile as a shopping destination. But it doesn't really matter imo; Midtown is the best live/work/play area in this part of the country and doesn't destination need retail to keep it afloat. A new Whole Foods is more significant than any number of high end retailers. The objective here isn't to replicate Northeastern cities; it's to create vibrant, livable neighborhoods.

Adding certain shops in the mix (CB2, Ace Hardware, etc) creates amenities for residents that make the neighborhood more vibrant and desirable. But Atlantic Station and PCM can keep the Gaps and the West Elms.

[jpk1292000]

I do think that with the 5000 - 10000 new residents (I've lost track of how many!) that will be moving into new residential towers in Midtown in the next 24 months, we'll see announcements of brands like Anthropologie, Apple, etc coming to Midtown. When the Midtown Mile idea was first announced five years ago, I'm not surprised it didn't work out. The residential density wasn't there to support it. Two years from now, it will be. And I strongly suspect that the retail will follow.

[scania]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

Buckhead Atlanta, the resurgence of Atlantic Station, and Ponce City Market have been the death knell for the Midtown Mile as a shopping destination. But it doesn't really matter imo; Midtown is the best live/work/play area in this part of the country and doesn't destination need retail to keep it afloat. A new Whole Foods is more significant than any number of high end retailers. The objective here isn't to replicate Northeastern cities; it's to create vibrant, livable neighborhoods.

Adding certain shops in the mix (CB2, Ace Hardware, etc) creates amenities for residents that make the neighborhood more vibrant and desirable. But Atlantic Station and PCM can keep the Gaps and the West Elms.

I agree for the most part, but for instance having a CB2 doesn't make the neighborhood more vibrant than having a West Elm or Z Gallerie.

[scania]

Originally Posted by jpk1292000

I do think that with the 5000 - 10000 new residents (I've lost track of how many!) that will be moving into new residential towers in Midtown in the next 24 months, we'll see announcements of brands like Anthropologie, Apple, etc coming to Midtown. When the Midtown Mile idea was first announced five years ago, I'm not surprised it didn't work out. The residential density wasn't there to support it. Two years from now, it will be. And I strongly suspect that the retail will follow.

You do realize that 5000 - 10000, in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of people for the businesses you are suggesting.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by scania

You do realize that 5000 - 10000, in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of people for the businesses you are suggesting.

Let us not forget the 10,000's of daytime white collar office workers that can shop during their lunch hour or after hours. Or the 40+ million people that attend conventions yearly. The economics work, but to date there has not been a single development that can create the scale needed to attract tier 1 retailers.

If a development has scale (i.e. room for several retailers) you create a destination which attracts consumers outside your submarket. This is what attracts the retailers I think most of us would like to see in Midtown.

Below is a development in Arlington, Va's Clarendon neighborhood - Market Common. This is what I envision for Dewberry's plot in Midtown - albeit much bigger and with taller buildings. The mixed-use development includes a Crate and Barrel, Pottery Barn, Apple store, and several other retailers. I would also like to see a high end cinema and bowling alley. Just my $0.02.....

[micropundit]

http://www.cushwakeatlanta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ATL-Jobs-infographic.pdf

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

Originally Posted by micropundit

http://www.cushwakeatlanta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ATL-Jobs-infographic.pdf

Wow, given the state of class A vacancy being lowest since 2001 and all this forecast job growth maybe we will start to see some spec office, maybe even another true trophy tower.

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i don't think the neighbourhood really needs specific project planning if it already has economic development that's pushing the neighbourhood forward. of course land use and how it affects the surrounding environment is important in zoning; for example, a lot of the buildings from the 70s onwards in midtown wouldn't be approved today because of their use of surface lots and lack of active uses— i think that's a good change. but if the midtown alliance and DRC don't have the funding to put into a midtown mile, i don't think they should have the ability to force developers to make storefronts specifically designed for high fashion and luxury. bottom line, retailers are out to make money. if there is a market in midtown for a store like that, they should open there, but if there isn't, there's no reason to force it and end up with a bunch of unaffordable and empty retail spaces that could have been targeted towards more viable options like restaurants, local entrepreneurs, and corner stores.

take a look at some of the greatest neighbourhoods in atlanta, like little five points. nobody really planned that, it just happened. the market did its thing and now L5P is a mecca for all the weirdos like me. i think generally the market will meet the needs of the community, but zoning is an important safeguard to protect the community from overzealous developers. using that ability to promote unfunded pipe dreams and favouring luxury over necessity, i think, is not a proper use of zoning.

this is different, of course, from projects like the MMPT and the capitol green they are planning to build between the capitol and oakland cemetery; the city has already invested money and has bought property to make these things happen; but projects like this are to increase greenspace and connectivity in the metro: legitimate needs that won't be met by private developers.

I think there are two parts to this and we are talking about slightly different things.

I'm talking about the form in which the development along Peachtree is built. With multiple property owners developed over multiple years , there is a high probability that any type of major retail would not even be possible without a plan for a shopping district. The same thing applies in Little Five Points. If it wasn't built in the form that it is with its density of street level retail in a small walkable area, then the way it has evolved would not be possible.

We can basically ignore the luxury aspect since that does not appear to be likely anytime soon. Attracting luxury retailers was the goal of the Midtown Alliance so that the district would become a destination but it doesn't matter if is luxury or not. The type of retail that occupies the spaces can and will evolve over time just as it has at L5P.

And I think the residents of Midtown have places to shop without having to drive to other parts of the city is a legitimate need if you're in the business of planning the city's development.

[Ant131531]

Problem is all of the office space is going in Perimeter, not in Atlanta's core. There's definitely office space being built, but you wouldn't think there isn't any being built since it's still in non-Atlanta proper areas.

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Let us not forget the 10,000's of daytime white collar office workers that can shop during their lunch hour or after hours. Or the 40+ million people that attend conventions yearly. The economics work, but to date there has not been a single development that can create the scale needed to attract tier 1 retailers.

If a development has scale (i.e. room for several retailers) you create a destination which attracts consumers outside your submarket. This is what attracts the retailers I think most of us would like to see in Midtown.

Below is a development in Arlington, Va's Clarendon neighborhood - Market Common. This is what I envision for Dewberry's plot in Midtown - albeit much bigger and with taller buildings. The mixed-use development includes a Crate and Barrel, Pottery Barn, Apple store, and several other retailers. I would also like to see a high end cinema and bowling alley. Just my $0.02.....

I agree with the first part of this but that VA development is basically Avalon with slightly different architecture. I don't think we need faux urbanism in the actual city.

I do think that a retail heavy development with at least 100,000 SF of space would be a catalyst retail Midtown but not in that form. Other than that, 12th & Midtown is the only development with any chance to attract major retailers and I think that if Atlantic Station weren't there, 12th & Midtown would have been more successful in attracting retail other than restaurants.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

Hadn't seen this before, but it is a more concrete plan for Integral's Doraville redevelopment including the Third Rail Studios portion into the design as well:

http://www.doravillega.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Assembly-Doraville-April-20-2015.pdf

[thepope117]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

Hadn't seen this before, but it is a more concrete plan for Integral's Doraville redevelopment including the Third Rail Studios portion into the design as well:

http://www.doravillega.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Assembly-Doraville-April-20-2015.pdf

Im loving that direct integration of the marta station.