Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[WarrenC12]

Business parks exist outside of downtown because of the cost, nothing to do with commute times or the desire to be in suburban locations. The last 2 companies I worked for strongly considered moving downtown, but in the end simply couldn't afford it.

I worked in an office park in Richmond that was empty because large tenants packed up and moved to other offices, in Vancouver and Burnaby.

Telus doesn't have "almost everybody" working from home. Last I heard it's more like 50% at most.

The long range plan that is now decades old is to establish other city centres in the lower mainland, so that people don't have to travel as far to work and play. Despite that effort there is not much evidence that the economic and commercial center of the region is shifting at all. Surrey is trying the hardest.

I still don't get what your point is, other than you think the viaducts should remain.

Somehow the city will be worse without them? Hardly.

[a very long weekend]

one of the best parts about the viaducts coming down is the re-establishment of the main street connection from chinatown. if that hospital is eventually built there and we see those hogan's alley blocks built out at a decent height, this is almost like another major economic pole built on what is now basically nothing. essentially, you're giving vancouver a massive area from the arenas to strathcona to build out, that's potentially a generation's worth of development in a normal city, even in supercharged vancouver that's 15 years or more.

also, the idea that suburbans from north vancouver can't get to vancouver as easily as before isn't a particularly convincing one. the parking lots are gone or going, the bridge is congested (as if congestion were itself somehow an indication of a lack of demand) and the rest. like, pinion, i spent a good portion of my youth in upper lonsdale and i can tell you that the north vancouver of today, particularly up lonsdale from the quay (was just there in march) is a pretty unbelievable turnaround from where it was 10-15 years ago, as you must know. population growth and a return to urban living are a big part of this but so is vancouver's shift away from being the major regional destination for everything. you should be pleased at the congestion (crush demand that mitigates access) because it has helped your town evolve into something a lot more interesting. let's say, worst case, that the viaducts come down and it's a catastrophic error and downtown loses 10% of its economy - well, that goes somewhere, maybe those millenium line stations see buildings go up, maybe new westminster does a bit better as an economic center, maybe burnaby continues apace. don't really see why a suburban would complain about what people and electeds in a completely different city are doing when it could possibly help you. at a certain point it's just ideological: "they're rejecting my lifestyle so they're my enemies." not a reasonable way to be in the world.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

word barf

I don't disagree that they could do a lot more with those 2 blocks, but it's only 2 blocks that would be changed. One of which should really be currently classified mostlyas a park. A shitty underutilized park, but parkland nonetheless.

I did some renders for the Re:Connect competition back in the day. You could fit a few buildings into the existing structures if you really wanted to. Keep in mind that these were short, because back in 2012 when these were built everyone was crapping themselves about things over 6 floors being built in Chinatown.

I'm not really sure why nothing has been done with the Hogan's Alley block. It had at one point been proposed to be a community garden, but it's just kind of been a shitty park for as long as I've lived here. A sound wall and a playground would go a long way.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by WBC

I highlighted "relative" didn't I. Yes there are offices been built after more than a decade in which by my accounts we added one AAA place (Bental 5) and converted several office building into condos. In the meantime suburbs and the rest of Vancouver have added tons of new office parks.

As a side note, I find it particularly perplexing that somebody like Telus is adding office space downtown given that they have made almost everybody work from home. But then again there are rumors that Telus wants to have HQ in BC only (and leave Alberta)

I also wonder how much of our new office space is related to the fact that certain people want to park money into something, anything other then their own countries (this is not limited to China) and how much is it really related to our "burgeoning" BC economy. The timing of building all this office space all at once right now is certainly strange, especially given that some of our our largest BC grown companies continue to move their HQs to Duncan's of the world.

Over the last decade what you have primarily added downtown are the low paying retail, hospitality and restaurant jobs.

What? The exact opposite is true.

http://www.avisonyoung.com/offices/vancouver?t=research

http://www.langleytimes.com/business/301471111.html

http://business.financialpost.com/news/p...own-office-space-being-driven-by-workers

http://www.cbre.ca/AssetLibrary/VancouverOfficeDevelopment_Sep2013.pdf

The suburbs are way behind in office space. Vancouver makes up some 2/3 of the region's office supply and the amount of office space being built in the city is only growing the gap between the city and the suburbs.

[logan5]

Curious to find out what the exact layout of the Malkin Connector will be. If it can run it through the St. Pauls land, just south of the Asian Foods warehouse, there would be a relatively free flowing 1.6 km connection between Main St and Clark Dr. This would help recover whatever lost time there is along the new Pacific.

As well as the Malkin Connector, the Kingway Connector (which the city has shelved for now) would provide a lot of relief for Pacific and the busy Main and Terminal intersection. Traffic goes almost at walking speed along Main St up to the split at Broadway.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by csbvan

The suburbs are way behind in office space. Vancouver makes up some 2/3 of the region's office supply and the amount of office space being built in the city is only growing the gap between the city and the suburbs.

Let me add the vacancy rate in the suburbs has been growing, particularly in office parks. Throughout many large cities of North America actually, office real estate trends are that there is growing demand in the city, and less interest in typical suburban office developments.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by csbvan

What? The exact opposite is true.

http://www.avisonyoung.com/offices/vancouver?t=research

http://www.langleytimes.com/business/301471111.html

http://business.financialpost.com/news/p...own-office-space-being-driven-by-workers

http://www.cbre.ca/AssetLibrary/VancouverOfficeDevelopment_Sep2013.pdf

The suburbs are way behind in office space. Vancouver makes up some 2/3 of the region's office supply and the amount of office space being built in the city is only growing the gap between the city and the suburbs.

That's all nice, but come that only happened after 15 years of nothing being build downtown? Because all those companies all of the suddenly decided that their employees will only work downtown and they have to accommodate the needs of their junior employees who are so precious to them. Me thinks there is a real estate dealing and wheeling behind this. Perhaps, the fact that city of Vancouver banned condo building in CBD has something to do with this...You know like we sit on all this land we cannot build condos on so....how about we build office space then...

[retro_orange]

[QUOTE=Alex Mackinnon;7108147]I don't disagree that they could do a lot more with those 2 blocks, but it's only 2 blocks that would be changed. One of which should really be currently classified mostlyas a park. A shitty underutilized park, but parkland nonetheless.

I did some renders for the Re:Connect competition back in the day. You could fit a few buildings into the existing structures if you really wanted to. Keep in mind that these were short, because back in 2012 when these were built everyone was crapping themselves about things over 6 floors being built in Chinatown.

I'm not really sure why nothing has been done with the Hogan's Alley block. It had at one point been proposed to be a community garden, but it's just kind of been a shitty park for as long as I've lived here. A sound wall and a playground would go a long way.







Whats this business about future high speed rail in the lower right of the second render?

As for the viaducts there was a fully functional street system prior to the viaducts being constructed and please remember that the viaducts are only a tiny portion of a failed highway system as part of Project 200 in the mid 60's. Once it was confirmed the highway would not be built into the downtown core, the remaining street system that was to be removed for the actual highway had to be extensively rejigged many times in the decades after to accommodate the obtuse placement of the viaducts in the existing road network. It may feel natural for them to be in place as they are today, we have become complacent with the current road network and many feel the viaducts are being used today as they were fully intended to. Since there was no incentive 50 years ago to make the area a comfortable living environment for condo dwellers the viaducts were left In place and made to fit as best they could by spending the least. Now 50 years on, many people don't know the history behind it and think it has just always been and are afraid of change. It will very likely be rebuilt as a better and more cohesive neighborhood as it once was. Plus adjustments will always be made to the road network, widening, traffic light adjustments etc. and you can easily have more, less conjested routes into the downtown core from the suburbs.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by deasine

Let me add the vacancy rate in the suburbs has been growing, particularly in office parks. Throughout many large cities of North America actually, office real estate trends are that there is growing demand in the city, and less interest in typical suburban office developments.

The article mentioning it being "driven by workers" is true in my experience. I was in a Richmond office park that was pretty awful. Poorly served by transit, no walkable choices for lunch, no views... brutal, but probably typical for many suburban office areas.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WBC

That's all nice, but come that only happened after 15 years of nothing being build downtown? Because all those companies all of the suddenly decided that their employees will only work downtown and they have to accommodate the needs of their junior employees who are so precious to them. Me thinks there is a real estate dealing and wheeling behind this. Perhaps, the fact that city of Vancouver banned condo building in CBD has something to do with this...You know like we sit on all this land we cannot build condos on so....how about we build office space then...

When in doubt, make up a conspiracy.

[WarrenC12]

Can somebody help me understand the idea behind the Malkin connector? You get cars off Prior but then where do they go?

[WBC]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

When in doubt, make up a conspiracy.

When in doubt quote real estate agents

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I did some renders for the Re:Connect competition back in the day. You could fit a few buildings into the existing structures if you really wanted to. Keep in mind that these were short, because back in 2012 when these were built everyone was crapping themselves about things over 6 floors being built in Chinatown.

yeah, great plan lol. not at all kooky bc type sitting in his bedroom raging against system

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

yeah, great plan lol. not at all kooky bc type sitting in his bedroom raging against system

Old competition page.

There were some odd plans in that competition. Mine was pretty mundane, although I'd say Larry Beasley's was the most boring even though it won. I mostly wanted to point out that you could still fit lots of density into the picture while retaining the full structure.

My favourite submission in the competition was called False Hill. A beautiful stacked city landfill idea.

[a very long weekend]

the point is that knocking these things down and building out on the grid requires so much less of this sort of mad science, particularly given everything we know about how vancouver develops. proposing some radical scheme and then saying something like "see, we should keep these things that nuke 8 blocks of core vancouver because if we get very creative we could build around them" - it's just not credible.

[Metro-One]

How is any of this mad science, look at all the development around the stadiums all ready (I forget the name of the older condo project that was built on the western edge, and now the Roger's Arena towers, and Costco, etc...) And look at Granville Island and look at the 1500 being built on the Granville Street Bridge north approach.

The point is some of us actually prefer interesting layered urban settings that add variety, texture, and interest to an urban area while not retarding goods and people movement.

And they can connect the grid with the viaducts in place, arguably even better for pedestrians and bicycles. And ironically the plan that won will not be doing so, instead it will be a big empty park, adding very little to the grid or the urban form of the area.

With the Malkin Connector, the new potential hospital, and many other aspects (the fact that these viaducts are relatively high with relatively few supports makes them far easier to build under and around than most) keeping the viaducts, or at least one of them, is a superior choice. But I guess Vancouver just wants more of the same boring green patch of a field with a massive wide surface street with our main ceremonial road ending with a down sloped T intersection.... sigh....

Again, one thing I love about Japan is they don't fear the urban form like Vancouver does. Vancouver is a city that wants all the pros of urban living without any of the "negatives" of an urban area (negatives being factories, other industrial activities, fuel shipping, roadways, hell they don't even want elevated rail structures...) For me, when handled properly, these are not negatives (hence the quotations) but Vancouver's surface level hippie style methodology really does start to grind my gears.

you can call yourself the greenest city in the world all you want and take part in superficial "green" activities (such as taking down non-offensive viaducts that still have 40 years left in them with minimal maintenance) but the true greenest cities in the world are the ones such as in Europe where they can be green but are also not be afraid of layered urban forms and actually having the big scary roadways and production factories that build the trains, wind turbines, solar panels, etc... (which all still require heavy open pit mining and other scary stuff the green left in BC hate so much!)

[Vin]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

the point is that knocking these things down and building out on the grid requires so much less of this sort of mad science, particularly given everything we know about how vancouver develops. proposing some radical scheme and then saying something like "see, we should keep these things that nuke 8 blocks of core vancouver because if we get very creative we could build around them" - it's just not credible.

It's not mad science. The viaducts have been carrying to-and-fro traffic linking downtown to Strathcona and East Van efficiently since the 70s. We need them because downtown is essentially perched on a cliff at the West Georgia/Smithe and Beatty Street locations. West Georgia is also an important link connected directly to the north shore via Lions Gate Bridge. The viaducts are therefore important links that help ease traffic build-ups and congestions at Pacific Boulevard and East Hastings/Powell Streets. Building around these vital structures make plenty of sense, just like how we try to build around Burrard Bridge, Granville Bridge and even Cambie Bridge.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

We need them because downtown is essentially perched on a cliff at the West Georgia/Smithe and Beatty Street locations. West Georgia is also an important link connected directly to the north shore via Lions Gate Bridge. The viaducts are therefore important links that help ease traffic build-ups and congestions at Pacific Boulevard and East Hastings/Powell Streets. Building around these vital structures make plenty of sense, just like how we try to build around Burrard Bridge, Granville Bridge and even Cambie Bridge.

We need a route down the hill, not the entire viaducts. The connection on the Prior/Main side is pretty poor as well.

But, they are coming down, people need to get used to that.

Five Stages of Grief:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

It seems like most people are still in stages 2-3... time to keep moving through.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

We need a route down the hill, not the entire viaducts. The connection on the Prior/Main side is pretty poor as well.

But, they are coming down, people need to get used to that.

Five Stages of Grief:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

It seems like most people are still in stages 2-3... time to keep moving through.

45 degree angle down the hill to maximize land use and minimize ramp space instead? LOL. And please explain how the connections at Main and Prior are "poor"? And how can a widened Pacific Boulevard actually improve the situation and connectivity? Again, you state something "negative" about the viaducts and then fail to come up with a better alternative, and you expect people to buy to your logic of an improvement after the viaducts are gone?

Even though I know there's a high chance of the viaducts coming down, I need to voice my opposition, and you need to get used to that.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Vin

45 degree angle down the hill to maximize land use and minimize ramp space instead? LOL.

The future Georgia st


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