Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[logan5]

@pinion

The Evergreen Line and the eventual Broadway Line will make driving into downtown that much more unnecessary. All the bridges have extra capacity. The viaducts are coming down. You dont see a trend here?

The viaduct cult is dying.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Regardless if you are pro-viaduct or anti-viaduct, pro-vision or anti-vision, everyone should be upset on how this facade has played out.

And why? The Vision administration has been advocating this for a few years prior to the 2014 election. And they were then re-elected.

I'd be more upset about the recent transit referendum, which could be seen as a successful power play for re-election by the BC Liberals that accomplished nothing for transit and increased animosity between mayors, regions, translink and the public.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by logan5

@pinion

The Evergreen Line and the eventual Broadway Line will make driving into downtown that much more unnecessary. All the bridges have extra capacity. The viaducts are coming down. You dont see a trend here?

The viaduct cult is dying.

I actually laughed out loud at "all the bridges have extra capacity." That's the sort of delusion that has Vancouver choking itself to death.

I'm 10km from downtown and transit is an unusable joke. Driving is almost as bad. We have the traffic of LA with a quarter of the population, and it's only getting worse.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You're not making any sense whatsoever. Implying that somehow a stadium surrounded by parking with viaducts is better than without. Frankly, both scenarios are pretty terrible.

What makes Vancouver unique is the climate (temperate rainforest) and the geography (mountains and ocean).

You whine incessantly about Olympic Village being boring anywhere else. Sure, it might be, however it's extremely functional, with great views, on the water with parks and the seawall. Those are the things that make Vancouver.

The stadiums with the viaducts are already well-liked by many here, as can be seen by lots of comments here. People who want the viaducts to remain have the right to voice their opinion, in case you've already forgottten what democracy is all about, and just because people don't see eye to eye with you, it doesn't mean that they are "whining", duh!

Having parks, sea walls and great views have nothing to do with the presence of the viaducts, or how much better OV can be. You are the one not making any sense here.

[logan5]

You isolate yourself on the North Shore. I live here in Vancouver. Cross any of these bridges, Granville street cambie street and even burrard with the bike lane. They have extra capacity. Plans for a bike\pedestrian lane on Granville. You dont see a trend here? The number of car lanes into downtown can be reduced.

[Pinion]

No, Vancouver proper isolated itself. It used to be an easy 15-20 minute drive to downtown from anywhere on the north shore. It doesn't have to be difficult and shouldn't be from 10-15km away. I can get to Metrotown faster than downtown now, and often choose to.

We're not talking about False Creek here, we're talking about the viaducts. i.e. the way into the city from the eastern suburbs, including those who cross Ironworkers bridge. I didn't used to cross Ironworkers, I chose the equidistant Lions Gate, but now Lions Gate is an eternal traffic jam.

Oh and travel across False Creek is great because THERE ARE SO MANY LANES AND BRIDGES. It shocks me how people cannot make the connection.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Nothing's "necessary." Some things are better off existing than not, and the viaducts are one of those things.

I won't cry when they're demolished since Vancouver proper already has scared me off from seeking employment there, but it makes me even less likely to ever look for a job downtown again, and each minute waiting in traffic makes me less likely to spend any money there. I'm not alone. Every one of these decisions is slowly chipping away at the downtown economy.

The hyperbole in this thread is next level.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I actually laughed out loud at "all the bridges have extra capacity." That's the sort of delusion that has Vancouver choking itself to death.

I'm 10km from downtown and transit is an unusable joke. Driving is almost as bad. We have the traffic of LA with a quarter of the population, and it's only getting worse.

The city of Vancouver is being choked to death. You nailed it. All of metro Vancouver's new office construction is moving to the suburbs. There hasn't been a new office tower proposal in Vancouver proper in what, 48 hours?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logan5

You isolate yourself on the North Shore. I live here in Vancouver. Cross any of these bridges, Granville street cambie street and even burrard with the bike lane. They have extra capacity. Plans for a bike\pedestrian lane on Granville. You dont see a trend here? The number of car lanes into downtown can be reduced.

Extra capacities on Granville and Cambie are only achievable because previous planners had the foresight to install wide bridges linking major roads to the downtown peninsula. If they had the same mentality as our current City council, these links would end up the same as Lions Gate Bridge today, with daily congestions. Now why should we allow the City to remove the viaducts and potentially cause more cogestions to that neighbourhood? It's utterly stupid. A trend doesn't mean it's a good thing, and people living here can help reverse it.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Pinion

No, Vancouver proper isolated itself. It used to be an easy 15-20 minute drive to downtown from anywhere on the north shore. It doesn't have to be difficult and shouldn't be from 10-15km away. I can get to Metrotown faster than downtown now, and often choose to.

We're not talking about False Creek here, we're talking about the viaducts. i.e. the way into the city from the eastern suburbs, including those who cross Ironworkers bridge. I didn't used to cross Ironworkers, I chose the equidistant Lions Gate, but now Lions Gate is an eternal traffic jam.

Oh and travel across False Creek is great because THERE ARE SO MANY LANES AND BRIDGES. It shocks me how people cannot make the connection.

Yeah.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Vin

Extra capacities on Granville and Cambie are only achievable because previous planners had the foresight to install wide bridges linking major roads to the downtown peninsula. If they had the same mentality as our current City council, these links would end up the same as Lions Gate Bridge today, with daily congestions. Now why should we allow the City to remove the viaducts and potentially cause more cogestions to that neighbourhood? It's utterly stupid. A trend doesn't mean it's a good thing, and people living here can help reverse it.

Yeah.

[Pinion]

nm, this is not going anywhere

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Pinion

nm, this is not going anywhere

Viaduct haters gotta hate, viaduct lovers gotta love.

...and ne'er the twain shall meet.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I haven't really posted in this thread as it's been rather pointless for a long time. The viaducts are coming down as IanS said, the election sealed it. The writing was on the wall since day one when Vision instructed city staff to include flawed criteria in the initial study. Look back at my breakdown of that rfp. Personally I feel the mantra of the viaducts being an obstacle completely fictional. Every single north-south across the viaducts is open. There is no barrier present. The Skytrain tracks do provide a barrier but they only dip down mid-block so don't affect continuity anymore then if a building was located there. The area is dead today yes. But that is the city's doing, if they were to say the viaducts are staying until end of life, you would've seen the area developed by now and those empty parcels built out with condos and some retail enlivening the area. I ran the numbers years ago in a previous job about what could be built on those parcels, all of them could have their max FSR built out within the viewcones limits and with the viaducts in place. Aqualini which isn't known to spend money needlessly managed to build out around them. They wanted to connect the South Tower to the viaducts but were told by the city they would not allow it. They also were told to remove any reference of the 4th tower proposed on the North side, not because it can't be built but because the city doesn't want it built around the viaduct. It's been so blatantly obvious that keeping the viaducts was never given an honest chance. And for the record my belief is also to have kept them till end of life, the Burrard bridge is significantly older and nowhere near being torn down, if ridiculous to believe the viaducts are at that stage. Regardless if you are pro-viaduct or anti-viaduct, pro-vision or anti-vision, everyone should be upset on how this facade has played out.

Exactly!

[WarrenC12]

The viaducts and the transit referendum were both politics, but they were both telegraphed from years out prior to an election, so people knew what they were getting with both. This isn't like the HST.

The idea that downtown Vancouver is dying or being choked is laughable. There certainly aren't any facts that agree with that diagnosis.

Here's betting the fireworks in the summer of 2016, or 2017, or whatever the first one is without viaducts will attract just as many people as this year's, if not more...

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by Pinion

We have the traffic of LA with a quarter of the population, and it's only getting worse.

I find Vancouver proper to be an incredibly pleasant city to drive in.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

I find Vancouver proper to be an incredibly pleasant city to drive in.

you must drive in night then, otherwise that's just a lie to try to make a point.



also, i thought TransLink had some say in this or something? that whole major road network thing of Metro Vancouver. what actually does the major road network mean exactly for roads placed in that category? does anyone know?

[WBC]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The viaducts and the transit referendum were both politics, but they were both telegraphed from years out prior to an election, so people knew what they were getting with both. This isn't like the HST.

The idea that downtown Vancouver is dying or being choked is laughable. There certainly aren't any facts that agree with that diagnosis.

Here's betting the fireworks in the summer of 2016, or 2017, or whatever the first one is without viaducts will attract just as many people as this year's, if not more...

Actually what has happened is that Vancouver downtown has in relative terms transitioned from place where you do serious business catering to middle aged office types to a place fit for urban "youth" craving certain lifestyle. Hence the transportation conflict issues - those still working downtown want their access to their office by car and those living in and around downtown do not want cars downtown. Also note that with the development and urbanization of the suburbs relative importance of downtown in term so jobs and shopping has decreased, although it is still entertainment center for sure. Mix in that real estate developers and you have what you have right now.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WBC

Actually what has happened is that Vancouver downtown has in relative terms transitioned from place where you do serious business catering to middle aged office types to a place fit for urban "youth" craving certain lifestyle. Hence the transportation conflict issues - those still working downtown want their access to their office by car and those living in and around downtown do not want cars downtown. Also note that with the development and urbanization of the suburbs relative importance of downtown in term so jobs and shopping has decreased, although it is still entertainment center for sure. Mix in that real estate developers and you have what you have right now.

So all of that talk of AAA office space shortage and new office towers being built and proposed is fake?

As far as shopping, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to shop close to where you live, no matter what that is.

Downtown still has all of the high end stores, but the days of coming downtown to do your shopping at Woodwards is almost a century out of date.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So all of that talk of AAA office space shortage and new office towers being built and proposed is fake?

As far as shopping, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to shop close to where you live, no matter what that is.

Downtown still has all of the high end stores, but the days of coming downtown to do your shopping at Woodwards is almost a century out of date.

I highlighted "relative" didn't I. Yes there are offices been built after more than a decade in which by my accounts we added one AAA place (Bental 5) and converted several office building into condos. In the meantime suburbs and the rest of Vancouver have added tons of new office parks.

As a side note, I find it particularly perplexing that somebody like Telus is adding office space downtown given that they have made almost everybody work from home. But then again there are rumors that Telus wants to have HQ in BC only (and leave Alberta)

I also wonder how much of our new office space is related to the fact that certain people want to park money into something, anything other then their own countries (this is not limited to China) and how much is it really related to our "burgeoning" BC economy. The timing of building all this office space all at once right now is certainly strange, especially given that some of our our largest BC grown companies continue to move their HQs to Duncan's of the world.

Over the last decade what you have primarily added downtown are the low paying retail, hospitality and restaurant jobs.