Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction - Page 339

GMasterAres · #**6761** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 5:17 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoTrans

It is not just the private sector that doesn't want to pay the higher costs. The public in general does not understand what the true costs of maintaining and building infrastructure is. Very few people want to give up the freedom provided by the personal auto and the subsidies provided by government to maintain and improve highways. Governments are afraid of introducing pricing schemes to recover costs because opposition parties will use it as a wedge issue to defeat which ever government is in power.

Car drives already pay far more towards the infrastructure that government invests in for car drives than any other mode of transportation out there. Sorry to break it to you but we pay for freedom and pay far more than the average transit rider is willing to pay.

That's why there is so much resistance to the notion of more tolls and road pricing to pay for transit. We already pay 3 times if not more per day to operate our cars compared to transit riders. Why should we need to pay 4 or 5 or more times what transit riders contribute?

Why? Your argument would be valid if car drives in fact paid the same per day for infrastructure as transit riders.

Equity right? That's what everyone always calls for. It's not equal.

GMasterAres · #**6762** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 5:18 AM**

Anyway sorry I'm done with ranting and arguing on politics and money. Truth is the only reason this thread is 339 pages long, we're a decade already in asking for this needed Broadway line, and aren't posting construction updates which are far more interesting ...

... is because our provincial government doesn't have any balls.

I'll also remind everyone I live in Surrey and nowhere near the Broadway line nor will probably ever ride it more than a once a year if that (I've ridden Millennium line 6 times since it opened so basically 1 ride every 2+ years). Fully in support for it and fully willing to pay for it regardless of my feelings that as a car driver I am asked to pay far too much towards transit already.

twoNeurons · #**6763** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 7:29 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhausner

Car drives already pay far more towards the infrastructure that government invests in for car drives than any other mode of transportation out there. Sorry to break it to you but we pay for freedom and pay far more than the average transit rider is willing to pay.

Of course, if we ran roads as a capitalist venture, we'd increase the cost of using them until the market couldn't bear it any longer. I suspect people would pay 2x what they pay now before switching to alternate modes of transport.

Caliplanner1 · #**6764** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 9:32 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Of course, if we ran roads as a capitalist venture, we'd increase the cost of using them until the market couldn't bear it any longer. I suspect people would pay 2x what they pay now before switching to alternate modes of transport.

Alternative modes of transportation (say from home to work) like jet packs?

aberdeen5698 · #**6765** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 3:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhausner

Fully in support for it and fully willing to pay for it regardless of my feelings that as a car driver I am asked to pay far too much towards transit already.

Refreshing to see someone who is willing to support something that is for the greater good even if he doesn't receive much personal benefit to himself. It seems like there are too few people with that outlook these days.

My usual analogy is the school system. I don't have children, but I pay school taxes gladly because I understand the benefit of having a well educated society. Transit works the same way, IMHO.

trofirhen · #**6766** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 4:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Alternative modes of transportation (say from home to work) like jet packs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Of course, if we ran roads as a capitalist venture, ..... switching to alternate modes of transport.

You all know Vinci, of course.

Here's the private sector investing in infrastructure (though not rail, in these instances)

http://www.duplexa86.fr/fr/article/duplex-a86-accueil

http://www.vinci-construction-projects.com/british-isles

Prometheus · #**6767** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 5:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I don't have children, but I pay school taxes gladly...

Well, you don't have any choice in the matter. I guess you might as well pretend to be "glad" about it.

Caliplanner1 · #**6768** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 6:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trofirhen

You all know Vinci, of course.

Here's the private sector investing in infrastructure (though not rail, in these instances)

http://www.duplexa86.fr/fr/article/duplex-a86-accueil

http://www.vinci-construction-projects.com/british-isles

Here in Southern California there is a private highway that went bust!

http://www.texasturf.org/2012-06-01-03-0...ships/2049-ca-privatized-tollways-a-bust

http://blogs.reuters.com/muniland/2013/01/19/are-private-toll-roads-a-losing-idea/

.......and over in Indiana too:
http://www.texasturf.org/2012-06-01-03-0...ptcy-on-indiana-toll-road-is-sh-130-next

trofirhen · #**6769** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 7:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Here in Southern California there is a private highway that went bust!

http://www.texasturf.org/2012-06-01-03-0...ships/2049-ca-privatized-tollways-a-bust

http://blogs.reuters.com/muniland/2013/01/19/are-private-toll-roads-a-losing-idea/

.......and over in Indiana too:
http://www.texasturf.org/2012-06-01-03-0...ptcy-on-indiana-toll-road-is-sh-130-next

Hmm. Bad news. VINCI seems to be doing well, nonethess.

Caliplanner1 · #**6770** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 7:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Hmm. Bad news. VINCI seems to be doing well, nonethess.

It would be interesting to see if they're getting any government subsidies/concessions etc. (and how much, if they are).

aberdeen5698 · #**6771** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 9:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Well, you don't have any choice in the matter. I guess you might as well pretend to be "glad" about it.

I don't pretend, I am genuinely happy to live in a society that values education and which reaps its benefits. There are a lot worse places in the world to live. In fact as an only child with no heirs I will be leaving a bequest for post-secondary bursaries in my will because I don't feel that the government is doing enough to make education affordable. I believe that a good, practical education is just about the most important thing in life because it can lead to a rewarding career which in turn supports the kind of happy and secure life that I've been very fortunate to have had.

On the other hand, your assumption that I have to "pretend" to be happy about it suggests you think that everyone is really just in it for themselves. People often project their own attitudes on to others - I sincerely hope that's not true in your case. Perhaps you'll just have to take my word for it that in fact some of us really aren't quite so narcissistic.

trofirhen · #**6772** Posted **Jul 21, 2015, 10:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

It would be interesting to see if they're getting any government subsidies/concessions etc. (and how much, if they are).

I'm not in a position to do a corporate audit,
but given that they're in Europe, where there are a lot of subsidies both at the corporte and individual level, I just bet there might be.

ClaytonA · #**6773** Posted **Jul 22, 2015, 11:19 PM**

Car drivers do not cover the full cost; I cannot find the source - IIRC it was operating costs covered, any capital costs (eg like a new GM Bridge) are not, they're from general revenue.

There are many global examples of bankrupt toll roads or toll roads missing their traffic projections just like the Port Mann bridge - just google toll road bankruptcies.

ClaytonA · #**6774** Posted **Jul 22, 2015, 11:27 PM**

Federal government commits to Ottawa LRT Stage 2 Funding

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/federal-tories-pledge-1-billion-for-ottawas-rail-plans

Quote:

The federal government is ready to give Ottawa $1 billion for its light-rail plans, Orléans MP Royal Galipeau told Mayor Jim Watson in a letter Wednesday.

...

The money will depend on agreements on specific projects, based on detailed applications the city hasn’t filed yet.

But the promise of money means the city can push ahead with finer planning for the stage of rail construction to begin once the first phase of light rail, between Tunney’s Pasture and Blair Road, is done in 2018. ... In this case, city council approved the plan’s environmental assessments — a major step — two weeks ago, and asked for the other governments’ support in principle so it could continue.

...

His chief rival in Orléans, the Liberals’ Andrew Leslie, pointed out that Liberal leader Justin Trudeau publicly promised support for more rail in Ottawa back in February, and the provincial Liberals did it a year ago.

...

Ottawa’s rail plans are backed by a unanimous city council, which makes the city look as though it has its act together. That’s especially true compared to, say, Toronto, whose council is constantly undoing decisions it’s already made about subways and rail lines. Or Vancouver, where voters just decided against a sales-tax increase for a major transit expansion. Brampton has put off a decision on a new light-rail line that the provincial government is willing to fund completely.

...

“I am very proud of the work of all members of council that led to the unanimous approval of the Stage 2 LRT project by council, which strengthened our position to quickly secure this historic funding commitment from the government of Canada,” the statement said. “Today’s federal commitment is in addition to previous indications from Premier Kathleen Wynne and the government of Ontario that they also intend to support the project. I look forward to formalizing these funding commitments so we can move forward with construction in 2018.”

...

ClaytonA · #**6775** Posted **Jul 22, 2015, 11:43 PM**

Does Translink push ahead with planning for Broadway or just Surrey LRT?

COV could make a statement that this is going ahead to facilitate planning not being put on hold after the current RFP is completed.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...or-broadway-subway-line/article25521380/

Quote:

While light rail in Surrey would need subsidies because of low ridership for at least a decade, Vancouver’s engineering department has estimated that a Broadway subway would carry 250,000 passengers a day upon opening and grow to more than 300,000 by 2040. Engineers are currently assessing whether that volume might mean the line would produce profits that could be used for transit funding throughout the region.

“Vancouver’s in a unique position,” the mayor said. “The one advantage to financing Broadway separately is it could take the pressure off the rest of the region on that financing piece. And maybe with a reduced load on the mayors’ 10-year plan, it’s easier to raise the balance of it and invest in the region.”

It’s likely that if Vancouver finances its $1-billion share on its own, it would come from a variety of sources.

Mr. Robertson said a part of the money needed could be included among the usual approvals for capital projects that Vancouver asks from voters in every civic election. The city got an approval for $275-million last time for improvements to a wide array of roads, bridges and community facilities.

“It’s conceivable, though our borrowing power is limited,” he said.

Any money borrowed through such long-term bonds ultimately comes from property taxes, although spread out over 30 years, with taxes helping cover the yearly paybacks.

There you go, plan B is property taxes either throughout the city via a debt offering or special assessment. Surrey's P3 is also really just a different form of financing, borrowing from the construction consortium, and funding looks like it will also come from property tax increases.

Municipal leaders need to provide the leadership, or we're losing momentum. Let's just get it over with and keep whatever momentum there is instead of dragging it out, and delaying for five more years. Do they feel they have the political capital to do so?

Caliplanner1 · #**6776** Posted **Jul 23, 2015, 4:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhausner

Car drives already pay far more towards the infrastructure that government invests in for car drives than any other mode of transportation out there. Sorry to break it to you but we pay for freedom and pay far more than the average transit rider is willing to pay.

The reality is that the individual automobile, though more convenient, is more wasteful a mode of transportation (in terms of efficient energy use in transporting the public, congestion relief and protecting the environment within the context of climate change control efforts)!

queetz@home · #**6777** Posted **Jul 23, 2015, 5:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Does Translink push ahead with planning for Broadway or just Surrey LRT?

COV could make a statement that this is going ahead to facilitate planning not being put on hold after the current RFP is completed.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...or-broadway-subway-line/article25521380/

There you go, plan B is property taxes either throughout the city via a debt offering or special assessment. Surrey's P3 is also really just a different form of financing, borrowing from the construction consortium, and funding looks like it will also come from property tax increases.

Municipal leaders need to provide the leadership, or we're losing momentum. Let's just get it over with and keep whatever momentum there is instead of dragging it out, and delaying for five more years. Do they feel they have the political capital to do so?

I personally have been championing in this forum that 1) Vancouver go it alone for the Broadway Line, and 2) that property tax be used. So it seems that yes, Vancouver can do both. And despite the doomsayers saying that Broadway Line is dead due to the defeated referendum, I've always am confident that it will be built regardless, but Vancouver could and should go on it alone. And the best part is it will come to a vote so Vancouver taxpayers actually get a say on it, and if they don't want it, it will be their own fault.