Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

The tunnel boring will start in late July, expected to last three months, ending at Clarke Road and Robinson Road for machine maintenance.

If you look at the map posted, the current position of Alice to Clark and Robinson is about 45% of the remaining tunnel.

So start it up July 31, get to Clark and Robinson Oct 31. Maintenance, let's assume 2 months to Dec 31, then three more months and breakthrough on Mar 31, 2016.

And, based on the timeline so far, that's optimistic. I'd be very surprised if this line is in revenue service in 2016.

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

Depends on what you consider to be 'fundamentally incorrect'. They're basing their actions over the results of their test bore holes. They could have drilled holes every five feet or so to get a more accurate picture of the ground conditions, but that would have raised the costs and duration of that part of the project considerably. The perfect tool in this case would basically be x-ray vision. They certainly could have used that in Seattle a few years ago as well. But, since we don't have that, sample drilling every so far is the name of the game.

Sinkholes happen when you're tunneling. They can occur when tunneling due to insufficient data or incorrect assumptions, but given the soil conditions, I wouldn't think that the possibility was ever entirely ruled out.

Not exactly or entirely.

EGRT isn't working only with "their" test bore holes. They are using and relying on the work of the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure's Geotechnical Baseline Report (GBR) which includes the statement "The GBR is an integral part of the Project Agreement..."

http://docs.openinfo.gov.bc.ca/D27323814A_Response_Package_TRA-2014-00090.PDF

And my line of questioning goes back to the earlier discussions on penalties and liability for delay. If the information provided by the client (MoTI) is factually incorrect and the contractor bases their negotiation and work on that incorrect information, then some liability can go back onto the client.

[Olden Retreiver]

I'm not trying to make the case that liability for delays should come back to the Provincial Ministry or to TransLink. I'm just trying to point out that their risk is not reduced to zero. Contract law can be a tricky thing, and disputes are nearly always resolved with compromise and shared responsibility.

Now, to the main point at hand - Everyone here should read at least pages 26 to 29 of the Geotechnical Baseline Report:

http://docs.openinfo.gov.bc.ca/D27323814A_Response_Package_TRA-2014-00090.PDF

Does it not look as though the tunnel builders studiously ignored the direct and specific warnings and instructions on page 27 that "...these materials will flow immediately upon exposure...(r)apid support of these materials and ground improvement are required...," at least for the first 2 maintenance stops at Chateau Place and at Cecile Drive? (And that, secondarily, their efforts at Seaview have been woefully inadequate.)

So far as any of us here know, they left the ground unsupported and unimproved at the first 2 maintenance stops, leading to the first 2 sinkholes. How can spokespersons for EGRT stand in front of the public and say all necessary precautions are taken and that soil conditions cannot be foreseen? The ground conditions, expected behaviour, and preventative measures are each laid out in exquisite detail in the GBR.


Going to the very next page of the GBR, how can we now have confidence that EGRT has followed requirements that " ...care must be taken to avoid ground loss from over excavation..." to avoid air pockets outside the tunnel shell that might migrate to surface next week, next month, or next decade?

Gosh, I wish I had been able to attend the meeting in Coquitlam last night to ask these things directly.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

The purpose of the grout wall IS to hold up the ground to prevent sink holes. Nothing to do with stopping water, that is done by a separate dewatering process to lower the water table.

Listen, if you go to a sandy beach, fill up a bucket of sand and plop it upside down to create a little sand mountain, this is how cohesive Burnaby Mountain/Clarke Hill is. The only thing holding it all together is gravity. Now imagine trying to bore a miniature tunnel through that little mountain of sand you got.

I will let you guys judge what is or is not incompetence yourselves through the following information. First of all I want to make clear, that having to build a grout wall in of itself is NOT a sign of incompetent tunneling in any way. When you are tunneling through glacial sediment, building a grout wall is the only chance you have of keeping the soil stable for TBM maintenance and not getting sink holes.

The problem is, the project was building the tunnel through this soil condition WITHOUT building grout walls, hoping to just wing it through the TBM maintenance and hope that no sinkholes appear. This has the benefit of saving ALOT of cash by not having to build any grout walls, and being able to say in the literature that the only tunnel construction disturbance would be at both ends of the tunnel.

The whole reason for the tunnel delay, is that building grout walls wasn't planned for in the time schedule. For example, the TBM arrived at Seaview in March, but was sitting idle waiting for maintenance after the grout wall was completed in June. If the grout wall was already complete by the time the TBM got there in March, there would have been no delay at this maintenance stop (ignoring the fact it was already delayed from the previous stops).

The tunnel could have been completed on schedule if they started construction of the grout walls in the beginning of 2014, with each wall being complete before the TBM got there, letting TBM maintenance begin immediately, and not having the TBM just sit there a couple of meters before the wall waiting for its completion.

But the problem is, the project wanted to save some serious cash by not building the walls and hoping for the best. Well as you all know, even building these walls at the last moment, we still got sinkholes. So it begs to ask the question:

It is pretty obvious that building these walls for 5 months at a time is some serious coin. Would it just be cheaper to forgo the walls, let a huge sinkhole appear, and repair it. Ofcourse the 4th sinkhole would be much larger, than the one that appeared if no wall was constructed. It might have been so large that it may have damaged some other structures. But, it could have been cheaper to just pay off the property repairs, than 5 months of subterranean construction.

So while this has been going on at Seaview, have they also been building a grout wall further up Clarke. There has been some machinery there for some time now. So when they start tunneling again and get to the next maintenance point, will the grout wall be ready? Meaning there will be no delay during the next maintenance schedule, so the schedule won't be delayed more than it already is?

[Ridgerunner]

Did anyone go to the Community Meeting this last week.

Can anyone report real information about what was said?

I don't want to rely just on Translink propaganda.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

I don't want to rely just on Translink propaganda.

Propaganda is when the information is intentionally misleading, which there is no evidence of. If potholes are forming, then that's just going to happen, nobody has a time machine, and nobody has been killed.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Propaganda is when the information is intentionally misleading, which there is no evidence of. If potholes are forming, then that's just going to happen, nobody has a time machine, and nobody has been killed.

Another version of the definition of "propaganda" is the use of biased/or a particular set of data based information to promote a particular view point (whether good or bad) as in media commercials/advertisements etc.!

[Ridgerunner]

Did anyone attend the Community Meeting on June 17th ... which centered on the tunnel?

I have a curious mind.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Did anyone attend the Community Meeting on June 17th ... which centered on the tunnel?

I have a curious mind.

If anyone here had, they probably would have answered the first time that you asked.

Here's a Global News article about it, however: http://globalnews.ca/news/2061618/coquit...er-upcoming-evergreen-line-construction/

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

If anyone here had, they probably would have answered the first time that you asked.

Here's a Global News article about it, however: http://globalnews.ca/news/2061618/coquit...er-upcoming-evergreen-line-construction/

The gist of that Global News article is basically 3 serious, valid questions from residents:

1. Is the tunnel boring process compromising soil integrity that could lead to more sinkholes or damage to their property in future?

2. Has everything that can reasonably be done been done to reduce the risks of sinkholes and other damage?

3. In addition to sinkholes, are other aspects of construction such as heavy machinery on surface and lowering the water table over a vide area causing strain on roads and buildings?

Good questions. No evidence there were useful answers.

[GeeCee]

Neighborhood meeting regarding densifying the Coronation Park area of Port Moody (across the street from Suter Brook).

http://www.tricitynews.com/news/coronation-park-planning-kicks-off-with-residents-meeting-1.1980433

[officedweller]

Testing and commissioning on the North Road stretch.

Test trains will begin running along the North Road corridor between Lougheed Town Centre Station and Burquitlam Station in July 2015.

http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/docum...Testing_and_Commissioning_Info_Sheet.pdf

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Testing and commissioning on the North Road stretch.


http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/docum...Testing_and_Commissioning_Info_Sheet.pdf

The minions don't understand that the line between Lougheed and Burquitlam doesn't have a tunnel.
Also, it's a bit hard to test tunnel ventilation systems if the tunnel isn't finished yet.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The minions don't understand that the line between Lougheed and Burquitlam doesn't have a tunnel.
Also, it's a bit hard to test tunnel ventilation systems if the tunnel isn't finished yet.

There's more to the project than the tunnel. There's nothing to suggest that anyone thinks that there's a tunnel in that stretch of track in this document. It simply states that test trains will BEGIN running in July starting with that section, not that they expect to be doing tunnel ventilation tests.

[WarrenC12]

When do the new Mk3 trains arrive?

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

When do the new Mk3 trains arrive?

Before or after the tunnel?

[Klazu]

Aerial shot from Onni's Brookmere website. They are planning a 28-floor tower at this location.

[red-paladin]

O.O Nice!

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Aerial shot from Onni's Brookmere website. They are planning a 28-floor tower at this location.

Shame Onni has the location. The building will fall apart before the line opens.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

Before or after the tunnel?

Rumours are the MkIII trains will be running before the end of this year.
Likely between Waterfront and King George to get a thorough break-in while still under warranty.


Any bets that Evergreen tunnel will be 'bored through' by the end of the year?