PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[1487]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

1487'll love this . . . but opening a downtown multiplex is probably way too risky for most developers' tastes given the possibility of renewed youth group misbehavior that checkered Center City's mainstream movie showing history in the 80s and 90s.

You don't like to hear this, but any amemity that attracts large groups of potentially unruly youngsters, particularly at night, poses a lot of downside and very little upside for developers in urban settings. Traditional multiplex theaters are not massive profit-makers to begin with, will do little to increase the value of adjacent assets, and may even lower them if the theaters become teen magnets or the site of unfortunate youth incidents. This is no big deal when the theater is surrounded by a sea of parking and off ramps with minimal opportunity to spread beyond the parking lot, but in city streets, incidents have shown a tendancy to spread out like wild fire.

If a theater were programmed to show more adult-oriented stuff as opposed to male youth oriented action flicks and the like, maybe it could work.

But I'm pretty sure the last thing PREIT wants is for its shiny new center to get a reputation as a teen magnet. That's good for teen-oriented businesses, but bad for every other kind of business, which is where PREIT is looking to make money. They're done with kids at this point otherwise they'd just have left the place as the Gallery.

Thanks for the explanation. I should've known the reason CC can't have a modern theater is because it will attract to many non CC thug types. And its amazing how this is only an issue in Philly- not in other major cities that have similarly dangerous and unruly demographics. Well hopefully PREIT will be successful in building a mall that has absolutely nothing desired by unruly teens.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

I'll have some photos posted shortly of the renderings and modeling.

Ya, great! On the edge of my seat

[1487]

Originally Posted by Williard Mouse

I agree 100%. I remember the days of Kung Fu films and marauding wolf packs terrorizing Center City. While we're at it, let's get rid of some of the Charter Schools in the business/tourism center and move them back into residential areas. Charter schools are the new incubators for wilding and knockout games.

Good point. There shouldnt be any schools near CC's abundant transportation links at all. Keep those kids in their own areas where they belong. It seems like there are almost daily attacks of good CC folks by those thuggish charter school kids.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by 1487

Good point. There shouldnt be any schools near CC's abundant transportation links at all. Keep those kids in their own areas where they belong. It seems like there are almost daily attacks of good CC folks by those thuggish charter school kids.

I have no idea if you were around here back in the day or not. To be honest, back in the 80s/90s, I didn't think much about "wilding" and smaller-scale related phenomena. It happened with some frequency, I witnessed incidents now and again, and I just accepted it as part of city life.

Then again, back then, Center City was kind of just hanging on by the skin of its teeth. Rent was cheap, apartments were schlocky but affordable, old office buildings were vacant and believed to be obsolete; night life was sparse except in isolated islands of activity along South St east of 7th and on a block or two of 2nd St in Old City around Chestnut.13th St had its night life too, but not the kind most conventional people wanted to be seen to be associated with.

Back then, nobody gave much thought to wilding and unruly teens, it was just part of life and the slow, inevitable demise and devolution of Center City everyone had grown completely accustomed to. My belief at the time was "hey, if you can't handle a little wilding now and again, you're just not cut out for city life".

And, it turns out, most people weren't. Back then, the City had to pay businesses millions not to leave Center City, but they still left in droves; and developers required far more in subsidies to do even modest run-of-the-mill developments that today developers do routinely all over "Greater Center City" with no public participation at all.

Bottom line: little was built, people were leaving, and the place was kind of falling apart. Developers and their investors had little interest in Center City.

Nowadays, investors are hot for Center City . . . in large part because the teen element that was so prevelant 15, 20, 30 years ago, has largely dispersed.

But few people who want to see their investments increase in value want to see the teen element make a comeback. So as not be accused of speaking in code, l'll state the obvious thst the "teen element" was largely an African American teen element. But not exclusively. I think a better description might be an "underclass" teen element. One only needed to go to Deptford Mall or Wildwood boadwalk to see that the unruly underclass teen element could be multiethnic. It just happened to be primarily African American in Center City.

Fairly or no, real estate investors correlate the presence of this element with decline in investment value. And I'm pretty sure there is a correlation (not to say a causation). Real estate people want nothing to do with this element, they think of it like Kryptonite to the successful redevelopment of upscale areas. They will shun anything, like multiplex theaters, that they think will attract it. And believe me, if developers could have their way, they'd get the City to relocate all those charter schools around Market and Chestnut to other places. And adjacent property values probably would go up as a result.

Institutionalized racism? Probably, in a way. Maybe institutionalized class discrimination is a more accurate term.

1487, I'm curious which cities with similar demographic/geographic structure to Philly have downtown multiplexes - ones that weren't built and/or subsidized with public dollars? Chicago?

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by 1487

I should've known the reason CC can't have a modern theater is because it will attract to many non CC thug types. And its amazing how this is only an issue in Philly- not in other major cities that have similarly dangerous and unruly demographics.

What have other comparable major cities done?

[VikingDutchman]

I remember when Boston Common was a nice park... Then that AMC opened and the place quickly devolved into a post-apocalyptic hellscape. The Supermutan- sorry, teenagers, have claimed all of Chinatown now, and it's only a matter of time before they cross the river and bring their loud music, low-hanging pants and insatiable hunger for human flesh to Cambridge.

But of course, I'm sure you'll say that that's a completely different scenario. I'm sure the big and well liked AMC in Newport, KY, 10 minutes walk from downtown Cincinnati and just a few blocks from public housing, is also a completely different scenario. I could go on, but I'm sure they're all different scenarios to you.

The notion that indigent teenagers were a cause of decline in Center City is absurd. Absurdity matched only by your very much racist and classist suggestion that CC should only for certain types of people, that we should actively be involved in trying to keep other types of people out of the area and not build anything they might like, and most absurdly that we all should be made worse off by the absence of certain amenities, because they might attract an 'element' you're paranoid about.

Center City belongs to Philadelphia, to all of Philadelphia. It does not belong to well-heeled college educated white folks with suitably suburban attitudes about all social and cultural topics. A Center City like that is not worthy of the name and is little more than an Epcot Center exhibit.

[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

What have other comparable major cities done?

Boston, San Antonio, DC, NYC, Chicago, Montreal...downtown theaters are great. I doubt anyone is thinking about the age or racial demographics here. Its probably just a financial risk that involves a stronger investment in an era where the movie theater business is seeing revenues fall. To think of it now, I'm sure new theater development is down across the country in suburbs and cities. All these theaters in downtown areas were built in the 90s or early 00s when the movie theater business had soaring revenues. That's probably why, BUT... it doesn't explain Blatstein's total interest in movie theaters on north broad and his new south broad development. Maybe since he knows the business very well.

ugh... it would be great though if we had a nice downtown one that is easily accessible and in a nice area where you can go out after or before the show.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by VikingDutchman

The notion that indigent teenagers were a cause of decline in Center City is absurd. Absurdity matched only by your very much racist and classist suggestion that CC should only for certain types of people, that we should actively be involved in trying to keep other types of people out of the area and not build anything they might like, and most absurdly that we all should be made worse off by the absence of certain amenities, because they might attract an 'element' you're paranoid about.

Center City belongs to Philadelphia, to all of Philadelphia. It does not belong to well-heeled college educated white folks with suitably suburban attitudes about all social and cultural topics. A Center City like that is not worthy of the name and is little more than an Epcot Center exhibit.

[yawning and checking my watch] Did you just finish your sociology term paper? Pipe down.

I didn't say I thought it was right. I'd like a nice multiplex in Center City.

I'm just summarizing what most corporate developer/investors think. You don't seem to get that. Note I suggested there is an element of institutional racism or classism probably at play here. Note also I pointed out the difference between correlation and causation.

The fact is, only companies like PREIT with big money will build a multiplex, and only if it adds value to their overall development strategy. They build stuff for and make money off upper middle class people (not me, BTW), not teens who like kung fu flicks. They won't develop things that don't contribute to their "value proposition".

If you want a mainstream multiplex in Center City that shows youth-oriented movies, my guess is that you'll have to get the City to build it, because I don't think PREIT, Brandywine, Liberty Property, or any other corporate player will.

Now, please continue ignoring what I wrote and go on blithering your self-righteous rant at straw men.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by cafeguy

BUT... it doesn't explain Blatstein's total interest in movie theaters on north broad and his new south broad development.

Blatstein didn't want to build the theater on N Broad, but the City - Darrell Clarke - insisted it be built as part of the incredibly profitable student housing Blatstein wanted to build on the City-controlled site.

Not sure about his thoughts for S. Broad.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

[yawning and checking my watch] Did you just finish your sociology term paper? Pipe down.

I didn't say I thought it was right. I'd like a nice multiplex in Center City.

I'm just summarizing what most corporate developer/investors think. You don't seem to get that. Note I suggested there is an element of institutional racism or classism probably at play here. Note also I pointed out the difference between correlation and causation.

The fact is, only companies like PREIT with big money will build a multiplex, and only if it adds value to their overall development strategy. They build stuff for and make money off upper middle class people (not me, BTW), not teens who like kung fu flicks. They won't develop things that don't contribute to their "value proposition".

If you want a mainstream multiplex in Center City that shows youth-oriented movies, my guess is that you'll have to get the City to build it, because I don't think PREIT, Brandywine, Liberty Property, or any other corporate player will.

Now, please continue ignoring what I wrote and go on blithering your self-righteous rant at straw men.

Upper Middle Class people are not going to shop at "The Fashion Outlets of Philadelphia" on East Market Street, FYI.

They'll be on Walnut Street.

The people who will be at the Fashion Outlets of Philadelphia are regular folk and tourists, which is ironic, considering you seem to suggest that's exactly who they're trying to avoid attracting, according to you.

Anyways...yawn. Demographic discussions are boring, especially when everyone claims to be not a part of this or that group. Relative to the population as a whole, there are relatively few "upper middle" class people, at least as defined by demographers, in comparison to the total population. There are even fewer truly wealthy (i.e. upper class) people.

To suggest this development could survive without the vast middle is just absurd. That's squarely who they're aiming for even though they're not admitting it because doing so is not sexy for marketing purposes.

[VikingDutchman]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

[yawning and checking my watch] Did you just finish your sociology term paper? Pipe down.

I didn't say I thought it was right. I'd like a nice multiplex in Center City.

I'm just summarizing what most corporate developer/investors think. You don't seem to get that. Note I suggested there is an element of institutional racism or classism probably at play here. Note also I pointed out the difference between correlation and causation.

The fact is, only companies like PREIT with big money will build a multiplex, and only if it adds value to their overall development strategy. They build stuff for and make money off upper middle class people (not me, BTW), not teens who like kung fu flicks. They won't develop things that don't contribute to their "value proposition".

If you want a mainstream multiplex in Center City that shows youth-oriented movies, my guess is that you'll have to get the City to build it, because I don't think PREIT, Brandywine, Liberty Property, or any other corporate player will.

Now, please continue ignoring what I wrote and go on blithering your self-righteous rant at straw men.

Wow... I'd ask if you were always like this whenever anyone criticizes your bs, but I watch this board enough to know the answer is yes.

Today's free advice: insulting someone, making (incorrect) assumptions about them and then telling them to "pipe down" is a really good way to seem like an ass and a really bad way to make any argument. Though if you were wondering, yes a sociology undergrad would be more than sufficient to see through your nonsense.

Incidentally, I do work for Harvard Business School, and understanding what corporate folks think is actually my job. I have never spoken to one executive, whether in the real estate development sector, or a large corporate entity (which is to say: office tenant) whose perspective aligns with yours.

You can try to dress this up as "oh I'm just saying what corporate types thing" or "im only talking about correlation" all you want. The reality is plain as day. This is all about your personal preferences and obsessions.

Cinema is, imo sadly, a struggling business. If Center City continues to lack a mass-market multiplex, it will be because of that general situation. It will certainly not be because anyone in the decision-making process is thinking "uhoh... this will attract the youths"

I don't enjoy these debates. This is a forum for discussing construction and spatial development in the city. I would be happy to see this one end before it goes any further. That said, I do think it needs to be observed that these always start with someone like you, thinking they can just breeze past with some racist/classist/ageist nonsense, then being filled with righteous indignation when anybody complains about it. Remember the big dust-up about the idea that what was really holding Philly back was a lack of super exclusive VIP locations for the rich and pompous to hang out in?

*sigh*

But oh well, I am well aware people like you are determined to believe that anyone who disagrees with you must be ignorant or young or naive, etc... That surely if everyone just had your enormous wisdom we would bow to the revealed truth you present. It couldn't possibly be that you should check your own perspective. Whatever, if that's what you gotta believe to get through the day.

[Cro Burnham]

HBS - I'll be. Just the association with Harvard Business School, given its being a historical bastion of class inclusivity, gives you instant credibility! I am suitably chastened.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

[yawning and checking my watch] Did you just finish your sociology term paper? Pipe down.

I didn't say I thought it was right. I'd like a nice multiplex in Center City.

I'm just summarizing what most corporate developer/investors think. You don't seem to get that. Note I suggested there is an element of institutional racism or classism probably at play here. Note also I pointed out the difference between correlation and causation.

The fact is, only companies like PREIT with big money will build a multiplex, and only if it adds value to their overall development strategy. They build stuff for and make money off upper middle class people (not me, BTW), not teens who like kung fu flicks. They won't develop things that don't contribute to their "value proposition".

If you want a mainstream multiplex in Center City that shows youth-oriented movies, my guess is that you'll have to get the City to build it, because I don't think PREIT, Brandywine, Liberty Property, or any other corporate player will.

Now, please continue ignoring what I wrote and go on blithering your self-righteous rant at straw men.

I do think that there are people on this forum who are blatantly racist, even just on this last page someone agreed with your first post on this topic and took it in a very racist direction.

That said, I've seen nothing in any of your posts that even treads in that direction. Explaining why things are the way are and the thinking behind the real estate decisions that get made isn't racist. The decisions and policies may be racist but you're not the one making said decisions. People are shooting the messenger.

Some people need to chill out. At least attack the right people for being racist.

[VikingDutchman]

I would never claim that it's an inclusive place. It's an aspect of the job I find very bothersome.

I suppose that's the difference between you and me, I'm completely open about being a white, college educated guy with fairly bourgeoisie tastes and a job that's hardly in the "caring" part of the economy. But I'd never for a second believe that people like me are the only people who count and that anyone different and their preferences ought to be walled out of the 'nice' parts of town. Urban spaces that cater to all of a city's people (yes, even the teenagers of color!) are far better for everyone than sterile suburban-minded monstrosities.

You on the other hand are in denial about being a self-centered elitist.

I do think that there are people on this forum who are blatantly racist, even just on this last page someone agreed with your first post on this topic and took it in a very racist direction.

That said, I've seen nothing in any of your posts that even treads in that direction. Explaining why things are the way are and the thinking behind the real estate decisions that get made isn't racist. The decisions and policies may be racist but you're not the one making said decisions. People are shooting the messenger.

Some people need to chill out. At least attack the right people for being racist.

In 2015, the blatant racists are only part of the problem. The bigger issue is that so much racism has been infused into how we talk about and conceptualize these (and many other) issues, that people can advance racist perspectives while being utterly sure that what they're saying isn't racist, it's just "telling things how they are." It's the final stage of Lee Atwater's famous speech... except now we've abstracted things so much that we don't even realize the racism is there.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I do think that there are people on this forum who are blatantly racist, even just on this last page someone agreed with your first post on this topic and took it in a very racist direction.

That said, I've seen nothing in any of your posts that even treads in that direction. Explaining why things are the way are and the thinking behind the real estate decisions that get made isn't racist. The decisions and policies may be racist but you're not the one making said decisions. People are shooting the messenger.

Some people need to chill out. At least attack the right people for being racist.

I appreciate your sharing your perspective.

Like many people, I acknowledge I probably have some intolerances which I need to check better sometimes. There is always room for improvement.

But if anything, I am more of an asshole thqn a bigot, and for that I apologize.

[Baconboy007]

Can we get more pictures and less arguments?

Did you know that there's a model of the Comcast buildings at the Philadelphia center for Architecture?

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by VikingDutchman

But I'd never for a second believe that people like me are the only people who count and that anyone different and their preferences ought to be walled out of the 'nice' parts of town. Urban spaces that cater to all of a city's people (yes, even the teenagers of color!) are far better for everyone than sterile suburban-minded monstrosities.

Hilariously, I agree with you completely!

Not only that, I put my money where my amply sized mouth (er - typing finger) is, I've boringly spent all but 7 or so years of my life well within the city limits of Philadelphia in ethnically and racially diverse neighborhoods, including the last couple decades in Center City cheek and jowl with restless urban youth of all stripes who trawl the byways of the more youth-oriented quarters of Center City.

This is whole dialogue is a self-generated tempest in a teapot, and I'm sure summersms will delete it al in the next few posts anyway.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

Can we get more pictures and less arguments?

Did you know that there's a model of the Comcast buildings at the Philadelphia center for Architecture?

Very nice!

[VikingDutchman]

You're right. I can reflect now and see that I was being far too severe. I do believe what I was saying but I was making it far too personal and this is no venue for such things.

My apologies.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

I have no idea if you were around here back in the day or not. To be honest, back in the 80s/90s, I didn't think much about "wilding" and smaller-scale related phenomena. It happened with some frequency, I witnessed incidents now and again, and I just accepted it as part of city life.

Then again, back then, Center City was kind of just hanging on by the skin of its teeth. Rent was cheap, apartments were schlocky but affordable, old office buildings were vacant and believed to be obsolete; night life was sparse except in isolated islands of activity along South St east of 7th and on a block or two of 2nd St in Old City around Chestnut.13th St had its night life too, but not the kind most conventional people wanted to be seen to be associated with.

Back then, nobody gave much thought to wilding and unruly teens, it was just part of life and the slow, inevitable demise and devolution of Center City everyone had grown completely accustomed to. My belief at the time was "hey, if you can't handle a little wilding now and again, you're just not cut out for city life".

And, it turns out, most people weren't. Back then, the City had to pay businesses millions not to leave Center City, but they still left in droves; and developers required far more in subsidies to do even modest run-of-the-mill developments that today developers do routinely all over "Greater Center City" with no public participation at all.

Bottom line: little was built, people were leaving, and the place was kind of falling apart. Developers and their investors had little interest in Center City.

Nowadays, investors are hot for Center City . . . in large part because the teen element that was so prevelant 15, 20, 30 years ago, has largely dispersed.

But few people who want to see their investments increase in value want to see the teen element make a comeback. So as not be accused of speaking in code, l'll state the obvious thst the "teen element" was largely an African American teen element. But not exclusively. I think a better description might be an "underclass" teen element. One only needed to go to Deptford Mall or Wildwood boadwalk to see that the unruly underclass teen element could be multiethnic. It just happened to be primarily African American in Center City.

Fairly or no, real estate investors correlate the presence of this element with decline in investment value. And I'm pretty sure there is a correlation (not to say a causation). Real estate people want nothing to do with this element, they think of it like Kryptonite to the successful redevelopment of upscale areas. They will shun anything, like multiplex theaters, that they think will attract it. And believe me, if developers could have their way, they'd get the City to relocate all those charter schools around Market and Chestnut to other places. And adjacent property values probably would go up as a result.

Institutionalized racism? Probably, in a way. Maybe institutionalized class discrimination is a more accurate term.

1487, I'm curious which cities with similar demographic/geographic structure to Philly have downtown multiplexes - ones that weren't built and/or subsidized with public dollars? Chicago?

wow, your views and understanding of why CC has developed are extremely simplistic and totally off target. CC is booming because they put all the minority teens in check? Really? That is what has resulted in billions and investment and thousands of new residents? The funny thing is there were far less students in and around CC back in the day because there were no charters and there were no student transpasses. The number of schools and students downtown has actually increased as CC has gotten better. The total opposite of what you describe. Ive only been here for 26 years- so I dont know nearly as much as you do about Philadelphia. I'm a newbie as you can see.