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  #7401  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 9:08 AM
Hourglass Hourglass is offline
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Just saw this little post on Twitter!

@airlineroute: CAAC has posted Hainan Airlines' application for 5 weekly A330 Tianjin - Vancouver service, starting June 2016

Not official yet... but.... this is big... no.... this is huge!
Big indeed. Hainan Airlines is the largest remaining mainline Chinese carrier without nonstop service to Vancouver.

I was wondering at the choice of Tianjin as it's a tier II city in China. But then again, only in China can you have a second tier city with a population of >14 million!

This is really exciting news. Thanks for sharing Johnny
     
     
  #7402  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 10:21 AM
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^^
I'm still wondering about Xiamen and its YVR plans.

After AMS they have gone rather silent.

SYD is being tipped as their next overseas destination but nothing official at all.

I also wouldn't be surprised with an announcement involving Hangzhou.

So YVR will be directly linked with China to Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenyang, Chengdu, Kunming, Hong Kong and now most likely Tianjin.
     
     
  #7403  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by deasine View Post
There's word an A380 will be making scheduled visits by British Airways coming next April.
Ha! Seems that YVR is going to surprise all of us once again!

I wonder why Johannesburg is such a destination for many airlines' A380s? How come they have such a demand for first and business class seats but YYZ and YVR apparently don't?
     
     
  #7404  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Ha! Seems that YVR is going to surprise all of us once again!

I wonder why Johannesburg is such a destination for many airlines' A380s? How come they have such a demand for first and business class seats but YYZ and YVR apparently don't?
I can jump in on this; I have worked on a project there for 18 months and know it pretty well now. Johannesburg is a pretty serious aviation market for several reasons.

(1) Johannesburg is the heart of the Gauteng Global City-Region, which includes Johannesburg, Pretoria, and Ekurhuleni, and together they have a larger population than you might expect: approximately 7 million people.

The City of Johannesburg has 957,441 people; Tshwane (Pretoria) Metropolitan Municipality has 2,921,488; and Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality (home to Johannesburg-OR Tambo International Airport) has 3,178,470 people.

(2) The Gauteng Global City-Region is home to a lot of international firms, particularly those that can generate steady demand for air travel. Most of the world's major banks have established a significant presence in Johannesburg (Sandton, to be precise) and use it as their command and control regional HQ for their presence in the African market. The command and control centre for the country's lucrative mining sector (gold, diamonds, platinum, chromium, rare earths) is still centred in the Johannesburg CBD. These mining houses generate significant ongoing travel within Africa and between South Africa and the big mining finance centres of the world. Heavy industry (automotive, transportation, heavy equipment) for Africa is concentrated in the Gauteng Global City-Region (primarily Ekurhuleni) and generates ongoing demand for air connectivity.

(3) Johannesburg is really far away from everything, so most long-haul flights need as much range as possible and they can fill their planes if they do a single flight per day.

(4) Johannesburg is the transit hub for international connections to sub-Saharan Africa, so there are steady streams of people flying through Johannesburg to reach other points in the classic hub and spoke model.

(5) Historically, Johannesburg was an exotic and prestigous destination for an airline to connect to (and arguably still is) and this warranted many flag carries to maintain the route as part of their demonstrated international reach.
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  #7405  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 5:15 PM
hoboman27 hoboman27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Just saw this little post on Twitter!

@airlineroute: CAAC has posted Hainan Airlines' application for 5 weekly A330 Tianjin - Vancouver service, starting June 2016

Not official yet... but.... this is big... no.... this is huge!
where where where? I looked on their twitter account but can't find it.

How reliable are they?
     
     
  #7406  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 5:37 PM
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Thanks for the "local" perspective, SFUVancouver.

That is what I was guessing but I am still amazed how many airlines have it as their A380 destination. I could understand one or two but there are like, what, close to five airlines flying an A380 there? LH, BA, AF (?), EK (?) and Qantas (?). Feel free to correct me on that.

I can understand the demand for business travel, but are average South Africans affluent enough to be traveling enough to warrant all these largest planes? How do they fill those economy seats? Johannesburg is not really a top tourist destination itself (Cape Town is doing much better on that front) and the neighbouring countries that it makes sense to connect through Johannesburg are even less developed (hence less air travel).

There definitely seems to be market, but I am curious to understand how come they are so much more appealing air markets than YYZ or YVR, for example.
     
     
  #7407  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 5:42 PM
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A lot of airlines fly into only Joberg, not Cape Town. This funnels all the traffic to Joberg
     
     
  #7408  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CareerShow View Post
A lot of airlines fly into only Joberg, not Cape Town. This funnels all the traffic to Joberg
That's true and has an impact. Do any of the Cape Town flights have a layover in Johannesburg, like many Buenos Aires flights seem to have in neighbouring countries.
     
     
  #7409  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by hoboman27 View Post
where where where? I looked on their twitter account but can't find it.

How reliable are they?
It's still there... It's still there... It's still there! Look again!

Would have been tweeted about 1 AM Vancouver time last night.

It's between the Hainan tweet about Shanghai-Tianjin-New York JFK and the one about China Airlines changes to Korea services.

Airlineroute is one of the most reliable sources for new route information.
     
     
  #7410  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
That's true and has an impact. Do any of the Cape Town flights have a layover in Johannesburg, like many Buenos Aires flights seem to have in neighbouring countries.
I don't recall many airlines adding a tag from Joburg to Cape Town -- maybe because one needs to clear immigration at Joburg? My last trip there I landed at JNB and then transferred to a domestic flight. I do know BA's flight from Cape Town to London is non-stop.

**edit: SQ seems to fly from Cape Town to Singapore via Joburg. A bit more digging would likely see a number of airlines doing that as well

A couple of additional thoughts regarding the A380 and Joburg: (1) the strong historical links between S Africa and countries in Europe and (2) the significant Afrikaner population in cities such as London. I think SFUVancouver's point #4 is a big one

Last edited by Hourglass; Jun 11, 2015 at 8:48 PM.
     
     
  #7411  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 8:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Ha! Seems that YVR is going to surprise all of us once again!

I wonder why Johannesburg is such a destination for many airlines' A380s? How come they have such a demand for first and business class seats but YYZ and YVR apparently don't?
Don't forget this is still based on a rumour. I'd be curious about the source.

Not doubting it just prefer to have rumours backed up with a reliable source.

Canadian markets in general, other than YYZ, are small(ish) and not premium heavy.

SFUVancouver really nails why JNB gets a few A380s. In my knowledge with BA, JNB was obscenely premium heavy. Many many flights would go out full-paid in F and J. It was very rare there would be empty premium seats into and out of LHR. Don't know if this is still the case today but I would assume there would still be some very significant wealth travelling in and out of JNB.
     
     
  #7412  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 8:30 PM
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I would think Vancouver would have a premium market on some routes such as HK and London, where there is a lot of wealth.
     
     
  #7413  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 8:45 PM
hoboman27 hoboman27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
It's still there... It's still there... It's still there! Look again!

Would have been tweeted about 1 AM Vancouver time last night.

It's between the Hainan tweet about Shanghai-Tianjin-New York JFK and the one about China Airlines changes to Korea services.

Airlineroute is one of the most reliable sources for new route information.
thanks, man that is big news.
     
     
  #7414  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CareerShow View Post
I would think Vancouver would have a premium market on some routes such as HK and London, where there is a lot of wealth.
Absolutely, and I've said multiple times before there is a decent premium market to a few global destinations and it may be bigger than some people think....

BUT (a big BUT) it is still quite small relative to many other cities. That is why certain airlines do have F class to YVR or have added new aircraft that now have F class or larger J cabins. CA, CZ, CX for example. This is mainly to Asia though. But unfortunately I don't think it's big enough to warrant the A380 or 748.
     
     
  #7415  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Absolutely, and I've said multiple times before there is a decent premium market to a few global destinations and it may be bigger than some people think....

BUT (a big BUT) it is still quite small relative to many other cities. That is why certain airlines do have F class to YVR or have added new aircraft that now have F class or larger J cabins. CA, CZ, CX for example. This is mainly to Asia though. But unfortunately I don't think it's big enough to warrant the A380 or 748.
Very true, although i dont think it matters. The 777 is quite a confortable plane and carries almost as many people as some 747 anyways.
     
     
  #7416  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 11:13 PM
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Very true, although i dont think it matters. The 777 is quite a confortable plane and carries almost as many people as some 747 anyways.
Agreed. Every airline has differing configurations from very comfortable to extremely high density.
I'll be flying on an SQ A380 next week and I'm really not fussed anymore after being on them so many times now. But I remember pining and waiting for it like a little kid. First time on it was early in the game and it was exciting. So I get the part of people wanting then to fly to YVR.
Now I'm happy with their 77Ws anyway as consistent products with their A380s other than the Suites of course.
     
     
  #7417  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 11:46 PM
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Tianjin, I can understand that they would likely be turned down to operate PEK to yvr due to air China sitting on that route. Not familiar with this city, safe to surmise it is a relatively large population centre within earshot of PEK (their natural hub city).
     
     
  #7418  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2015, 2:47 AM
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Originally Posted by teriyaki View Post
Tianjin, I can understand that they would likely be turned down to operate PEK to yvr due to air China sitting on that route. Not familiar with this city, safe to surmise it is a relatively large population centre within earshot of PEK (their natural hub city).
It's the 4th or 5th largest city in China
     
     
  #7419  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2015, 4:02 AM
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I appreciate your insight, Johnny, but some of your comments do occasionally sound pompous.

I don't think any of us would love to see an A380 route to YVR because we haven't flown on one (many of us have), but because they are beautiful big planes. I would think you above of all would understand thus. So there is no need to be condescending for us simple people stuck here in poor Canada. Eh?
     
     
  #7420  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2015, 5:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Don't forget this is still based on a rumour. I'd be curious about the source.

Not doubting it just prefer to have rumours backed up with a reliable source.

Canadian markets in general, other than YYZ, are small(ish) and not premium heavy.

SFUVancouver really nails why JNB gets a few A380s. In my knowledge with BA, JNB was obscenely premium heavy. Many many flights would go out full-paid in F and J. It was very rare there would be empty premium seats into and out of LHR. Don't know if this is still the case today but I would assume there would still be some very significant wealth travelling in and out of JNB.
I've flown to Johannesburg four times in the last year and a half: twice through LHR and twice through Hong Kong. I took BA for the LHR flights (a B744 and a A380) and Cathay (773ER) from HKG. On each leg of each flight I recall the economy cabins being absolutely full. There were also always a lot of people in 1st, business, and premium economy. The sense I got was that these planes were full from stem to stern.

Something to consider is that the sheer length of travel for any international flights likely trigger business class travel clauses in a lot of business travellers, plus there is still very much a culture of business people and government travelling well (business & 1st). Government fact-finding and conference travel is common and frequently involves surprisingly large contingents of staff. There is also a brisk MICE sector (meetings, incentives, conferences, and exhibitions) in South Africa, with Johannesburg, Durban, and Cape Town all sporting modern, world-class convention centres.

There is historically a large Indian presence in South Africa (particularly Durban) and an increasingly large Chinese presence for business and tourism (it was growing at 20% per year until the new SA visa situation cropped up this spring and the xenophobic attacks spooked the tour operators - Air China is going to scale down or suspend its JNB-Beijing route this fall and SAA cancelled the same route this spring).

This one is a big delicate: white South Africans are generally pretty well off. During the Apartheid years, white South Africans enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world. The diaspora of white South African is pretty large and they travel quite regularly to visit extended family. The black middle class in South Africa now equals the spending power of the white middle class and air travel, particularly within sub-Saharan Africa, is growing steadily.

Lanseria Airport in Johannesburg is emerging as the low-cost carrier hub connecting South Africa & Johannesburg to Sub-Saharan Africa and it on track to settle into the role of a Gatwick, for example. In time, I could see the Gautrain making a direct connection between OR Tambo International and Lanseria, making an domestic & international legacy carrier leg/regional low-cost carrier leg pairing an attractive offering.

The importance of the automotive sector is really hard to overstate, too. A large part of Sub-Saharan Africa's cars and trucks, including large transport trucks, are manufactured in South Africa and there is brisk trade in automotive parts perpetually flying through Johannesburg. The aerospace sector is pretty decent as well, with Denel being a Tier 1 supplier to Airbus and manufacturer of several key aerostructures for the A400M. Denel was also a Tier 1 supplier to Augusta-Westland, though they've wound down that relationship. Saab and Aerosud both have substantial presences in the Johannesburg area and presumably fly parts and people between Europe and South Africa.

Anyway, I'm going to throw on the breaks and not regurgitate my whole project. Suffice it to say, I'm not terribly surprised at all that Johannesburg is a place where the giants of commercial aviation come regularly to call. In addition to A380s, the place is bristling with long-haulers like the A340s, 747s, and 777s.
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Last edited by SFUVancouver; Jun 12, 2015 at 5:52 AM.
     
     
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