Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[finalcoolman]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

TBM Alice was launched at the Port Moody portal in March 2014, and the tunnel was supposed to take about a year to complete.

http://tranbc.ca/2014/03/26/the-evergree...ke-it-a-boring-job/#sthash.l6cwW7Xk.dpbs

A year probably including finishing work. But the breakthrough at the South tunnel portal was supposed to happen last December.

[WarrenC12]

Paging queetz to come in and defend EGRT...

[finalcoolman]

The proof thanks to archive.org.

Scroll down to: "Tunnel boring machine (TBM) breakthrough at south portal" near the very bottom.

The tunnel was supposed to be 'done' as in the TBM was finished digging last December. The "TBM removal and transition tunnel finishing work" was made it a 'year'. Ofcourse that has been long taken down from the website.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140816152736/http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/upcoming/Burnaby.htm

[Metro-One]

I am not surprised by the delays, that area is an extremely difficult area geologically, a hodgepodge of glacial till.

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I am not surprised by the delays, that area is an extremely difficult area geologically, a hodgepodge of glacial till.

And EGRT did not know this?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

And EGRT did not know this?

Yes, they did, but what glacial till entails is having large variation in geology over very short distances. They literally would have had to drill sample holes every 5 meters or so along the entire distance to know exactly (almost exactly) what they would be dealing with. So anyone with a basic understanding of geology is not surprised to see delays along this route.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yes, they did, but what glacial till entails is having large variation in geology over very short distances. They literally would have had to drill sample holes every 5 meters or so along the entire distance to know exactly (almost exactly) what they would be dealing with. So anyone with a basic understanding of geology is not surprised to see delays along this route.

So they should have built more contingency into the plan?

Tunnel boring seems to be one of the last mysteries of this planet. Nobody can predict it properly.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So they should have built more contingency into the plan?

Tunnel boring seems to be one of the last mysteries of this planet. Nobody can predict it properly.

Nah. Weather and Earthquakes is still not long-term predictable. We can go "Earthquake, big one, next 300-500 years", but that's not going to make everyone move out of Richmond for the next two centuries "just in case"

With the Evergreen Line TBM, from what's been said before, they have to change the cutting blades with changing soil conditions, and you can't really plan enough in advance. This is why we didn't have full TBM on the Canada Line, because it would have resulted in a unpredictable schedule.

On the other hand, cut-and-covering likely wasn't a good option for this alignment because it would have left the road inaccessible since there's no other road for people to go down to get to their homes.

Incidentally... Google Maps now has the Evergreen line's tracks on their 2D vector maps, but not the stations.

[SOSS]

Cut and cover was also ruled out because of depth and alignment under homes. It does t just run under clarke.

[Olden Retreiver]

To imply that no one at EGRT has a "basic understanding of geology" is the harshest indictment of the consortium I've read on this forum. Ever.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

To imply that no one at EGRT has a "basic understanding of geology" is the harshest indictment of the consortium I've read on this forum. Ever.

I am usually at odds with Olden Retriever but he is absolutely right on this. Anybody who thinks no one in EGRT knew about the geology is the most self-concieted armchair analyst. EGRT knew about the risks but ultimately, the riskier the road, the greater the profit. No doubt their contracted price is based on the amount of risk, and I'm sure they have enough contengencies to ensure that they will come out of this project profitable with zero collateral damage (far better than say, Canada Line with one death and a bunch of businesses screwed).

Plus I don't believe anybody here that say "I am not surprised by these delays" or "I knew the geology would make it hard" and so on. This is simply a "Nostradamus effect" of claiming to have predicted something that has already happened. This thread has been going on for years, and if you really made the call that there will be delays on the tunneling because of this or that factor, then I suggest you link the previous, uneditted post saying so. Otherwise, its all BS.

[Metro-One]

I love it when people completely misinterpret a comment.

I wasn't saying that EGRT had no geological understanding, I was saying that those bitching about the delays EGRT is having have no geological understanding.
Essentially, those members on this forum.
Hence someone who does have a basic understanding is not surprised to see such delays, get it?

Again, you would need to drill sample holes every few meters to know what you were dealing with and to be able to give a more precise timeline, which of course is nearly impossible to do. (and a waste of time itself).

Therefore, they could only add so much contingency time to the schedule.

[officedweller]

And that's why the Province is smart enough to allocate that risk to EGRT in the Contract!

[Olden Retreiver]

Originally Posted by officedweller

And that's why the Province is smart enough to allocate that risk to EGRT in the Contract!

Don't be too sure about that- "geological risk" usually remains with the client in jobs such as this, despite what one might think from a face-value reading of the contract summary.

I expect queetz is exactly right in his May 9th post, and the tunnelling consortium wil come out of this smelling (relatively) of roses, and with their wallets fully intact.

[WarrenC12]

Any contract experts know the milestone dates and penalties for missing?

[officedweller]

In this case the contractor bears the tunnelling risk:

Originally Posted by officedweller

WRT the Evergreen Line, it proceeded as a Design Build partially Finance contract.

Here's the Partnerships BC analysis of the contract (click "Project Report"):

http://www.partnershipsbc.ca/projects/pr...on/evergreen-line-rapid-transit-project/

A redacted copy of the DBF Contract and schedules is at that link under "Procurement Documents".

Here are the excerpts from that report which states that the private contractor accepted tunnelling risk
and will pay a financial penalty for each day that substantial completion is delayed past July 29, 2016.

The recent unexpected problems with soil conditions while tunnelling - which will delay the project
- are the responsibility of the private contractor consortium.

Note that the private contractor is building a single bore tunnel - which is an "innovation" versus
the Province's reference plan which was for a twin-bore project. This was said to speed up the schedule.
So in this case, had the Province proceeded with its own plan, the soil condition delays may have been encountered twice,
with a twin bore, rather than once with a single bore.

The current projected opening date is in Fall 2016
(Construction started in February 2013, with property acquisition and utility relocation undertaken by the Province before that.)
The contract requires TransLink to open within 1 month after substantial completion
- so backtracking 1 month to substantial completion, the contractor's penalties are for at least a month.

Here's the Press Release about the delayed opening and that the Contractor is responsible for the cost of the delay:

http://www.evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/documents/NewsReleases/2015TRAN0016-000182.pdf




http://www.partnershipsbc.ca/files-4/documents/PBCEvergreen.pdf


http://www.partnershipsbc.ca/files-4/documents/PBCEvergreen.pdf

]

[WarrenC12]

So there is a milestone for completion and operation, delaying some payments. But that's typical of just about any contract. Many are 25%/50%/25% with 25% on contract signing, 50% on the beginning of usage, and the remaining 25% at some defined number of days after usage begin.

There are no hard completion dates that trigger penalties from what I read there.

Payments reduced if performance is not maintained... that's typical. Although it might be a finger pointing exercise if certain issues crop up around Lougheed that impact the Evergreen and Millennium lines. W

[officedweller]

Top page - 2nd bullet, right column.
- Substantial Completion by July 29, 2016, or penalties will accrue for each day of delay

[red-paladin]

Thanks for clearing it up officedweller.

[xd_1771]

From the new leaked report on SkyTrain, discussion on the main Metro Van Transit thread. Pulled this from the report:

Extremely important: our new Mark IIIs arrive end-year. Another part of the report says they will enter service within this year, ahead of the opening of the Evergreen Line.

Gonna bring this over as well: I also found a picture of the mockup Mark III vehicle in a Bombardier report:

Originally Posted by xd_1771

FIRST LOOK: Bombardier MARK III SKYTRAIN PROTOTYPE (Innovia Metro 300) was under construction at Bombardier's Kingston testing facility as of 2014.
Say hello to the next generation


Screenshot taken from Bombardier document http://www.bombardier.com/content/dam/We...Testing_Services_Brochure_2014_05_V1.pdf