PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[themaguffin]

I think high 20s - 30 floors with multiple towers would be pretty ideal for the Riverparc site.

That's probably the high end of what we could expect. I would like to see it a little more robust than the decade old proposal.

I agree with the points on Uptown. The building looks nice and will hopefully be a catalyst for more.

[hyperion1110]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

That's your opinion. Yes we can take it or leave it, but it's a fact that you used a straw man argument. You equated the "temerity" of having an opinion (an implied different opinion) would be "too much for some people to handle."

That's factually inaccurate.


Now back to development...

Thank you for the way that you've reacted. You have, ipso facto, proved my point for me.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Originally Posted by WillyC

I use Ellsworth every evening around 6 pm. Yes, there is a lot of traffic, but it has definitely been backed up by people that have no business riding a bike on a street. When I used to ride my bike, I worked my 🞵🞵🞵🞵 off to make sure I was maintaining speed on these streets. So yes, people that can't hack it shouldn't be backing up traffic. After living in India and Thailand, I just don't get excited to encourage that sort of mess.

There are plenty of people out there that have no business driving on the street, and there are way more of these people on the streets than there are bikers, and they can easily kill other drivers/bikers/peds which the bikers can't.

This is why I respect the bikers more than the idiot entitled drivers like yourself, at least the bikers are choosing a mode of transportation that can't realistically kill others, therefore their presence on the road should be respected.

[dfiler]

As an avid cyclist I try not to let the discussion be about who is better or worse, or about pointing fingers at the other side. That conversation can lead nowhere. Instead I think it is more beneficial to steer the conversation toward what will make the roads better for both drivers and bikers. And this is coming from someone who commutes 33 miles each direction!

Drivers that are annoyed by traffic should actually want more people on bicycles. The answer to traffic problems is less cars, not more cars.

Each person who manages to ride a bike to work is usually lessening congestion. The reason is that they tend to have structured their life such that riding a bike to work is possible. That means living close to work. It also means they're less likely to be driving multiple places across town after work to run errands.

The bike is only part of the equation. The rest is about living in a neighborhood with shops, restaurants and bars, rather than in a neighborhood that requires driving to all of those places. This is why we see more cyclists in neighborhoods with all those services. With that lifestyle, while driving isn't usually eliminated altogether, it does decrease drastically. Hand in hand with that comes more local shops to service those people.

If a significant percent of Pittsburghers were living such lifestyles, the end result would be shortened commutes for drivers. While at the same time, they'd still be stuck behind bikers on occasion. It is counter intuitive but the data does support this. Cities with the highest percentage of commuters in cars also have some of the longest average commutes. Cities with the highest percentage of non-car commuters have shorter average commutes.

This isn't to criticize anyone for commuting by car or to somehow punish them for doing so. Remember, I commute an hour each way by car. Instead, it is hoping to ease some of the combativeness between people. More cyclists is actually a good thing for drivers!

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by dfiler

More cyclists is actually a good thing for drivers!

Excellent points. It is yet another oddity of the typical discussions on these issues that some car drivers apparently want to stick up for their "tribe" and attack any sort of investment or accommodation benefiting other tribes--but one of the main reasons they are facing congestion is there are too many members of their tribe and not enough of the others!

[photoLith]

This is an aside, but when will the new PNC tower ever be added to the Pittsburgh diagram?

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Excellent points. It is yet another oddity of the typical discussions on these issues that some car drivers apparently want to stick up for their "tribe" and attack any sort of investment or accommodation benefiting other tribes--but one of the main reasons they are facing congestion is there are too many members of their tribe and not enough of the others!

It's similar to the fact that many drivers seem unwilling to acknowledge that better transit funding helps drivers by taking vehicles off the street and thereby reducing traffic for everyone. Instead, you get the attitude of "why should I pay for buses that I never ride?"

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by GeneW

It's similar to the fact that many drivers seem unwilling to acknowledge that better transit funding helps drivers by taking vehicles off the street and thereby reducing traffic for everyone. Instead, you get the attitude of "why should I pay for buses that I never ride?"

And yet they don't protest over public projects for roads that they will personally never use, and that will likely dump more motorists on the roads that they do use.

Lots of craziness results when you are start being for or against things just on the basis of the transportation technology it involves.

[themaguffin]

Thank you for the way that you've reacted. You have, ipso facto, proved my point for me.

I responded appropriately. Your response is proving my point. Are you done yet, or do you want to continue to make juvenile comments?

Now, back to development.

[themaguffin]

It's similar to the fact that many drivers seem unwilling to acknowledge that better transit funding helps drivers by taking vehicles off the street and thereby reducing traffic for everyone. Instead, you get the attitude of "why should I pay for buses that I never ride?"

It is unfortunate. Given the awkward bottlenecks etc in the area, you would think that there would be more support than there is for alternatives to driving.

[AaronPGH]

Originally Posted by RespectCondor

I live in the East End as well. It has probably the most consistent heavy traffic of the entire city. I have a very hard time imagining you actually average 25 mph on those roads when you account for traffic. How do I come to those conclusions? the same cars that pass me are waiting at the next stop light with me. I usually average 15-18 MPH through the city and I think its not very different for cars on 25 MPH roads when you account for stop signs, stop lights, delivery trucks, etc. What I am trying to say is bikes are not slowing you down in any significant way. It might seem that way but I would argue they are only bringing down your top speed not average speed. Also its so beyond dumb to think that anyone that rides a bike has no where important to be and drivers are all in a rush to meet an important deadline, like having a car is a prerequisite for being a productive member of society. Road taxes and registration fees don't come close to paying for the roads. local, state and federal taxes pay for them. That means everyone pays for the roads even if they don't drive. Everyone gets the rights to use them.

amazing

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by dfiler

As an avid cyclist I try not to let the discussion be about who is better or worse, or about pointing fingers at the other side. That conversation can lead nowhere. Instead I think it is more beneficial to steer the conversation toward what will make the roads better for both drivers and bikers. And this is coming from someone who commutes 33 miles each direction!

Drivers that are annoyed by traffic should actually want more people on bicycles. The answer to traffic problems is less cars, not more cars.

Each person who manages to ride a bike to work is usually lessening congestion. The reason is that they tend to have structured their life such that riding a bike to work is possible. That means living close to work. It also means they're less likely to be driving multiple places across town after work to run errands.

The bike is only part of the equation. The rest is about living in a neighborhood with shops, restaurants and bars, rather than in a neighborhood that requires driving to all of those places. This is why we see more cyclists in neighborhoods with all those services. With that lifestyle, while driving isn't usually eliminated altogether, it does decrease drastically. Hand in hand with that comes more local shops to service those people.

If a significant percent of Pittsburghers were living such lifestyles, the end result would be shortened commutes for drivers. While at the same time, they'd still be stuck behind bikers on occasion. It is counter intuitive but the data does support this. Cities with the highest percentage of commuters in cars also have some of the longest average commutes. Cities with the highest percentage of non-car commuters have shorter average commutes.

This isn't to criticize anyone for commuting by car or to somehow punish them for doing so. Remember, I commute an hour each way by car. Instead, it is hoping to ease some of the combativeness between people. More cyclists is actually a good thing for drivers!

Well said. As a fan of driving and bicycling I hadn't even thought of some of this.

[chiaroscuro]

These arguments over bike lanes, etc are a real drag on the forum.

Can't they somehow be taken offline?

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by chiaroscuro

These arguments over bike lanes, etc are a real drag on the forum.

Can't they somehow be taken offline?

I think the increase of mainstream urban biking is a very relevant topic to a redeveloping city. It is one of the main indicators of vibrancy and a modern healthy lifestyle returning to the neighborhoods. I think it's relevant.

[ShooFlyPie]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Really? 25 on Bigelow? 25 on Blvd. of the Allies? 2nd Ave.? There's such a thing as wanting speed limits to be enforced, there's also such a thing as being ridiculous in wishing it to take as long as humanly possible to travel across town. Between people being cool with bicyclists traveling 10mph in the middle of a traffic lane, people wanting ever lower speed limits in general, etc., you're advocating for a literal traffic gridlock situation for many hours per day. And it's not like there are real alternatives in Pittsburgh for getting across town right now.

If you think people drive too fast in Pittsburgh, you've obviously never driven in many other cities. Pittsburgh drivers are generally VERY slow by comparison, excepting I-79 as a major outlier.

Aaron (Glowrock)

I take it you don't cycle, obviously.......

Anyways, please understand that many cyclist must take the middle of lane for their safety. Riding in door zones can be detrimental. I cycle daily and take the middle of the lane. The grid lock is caused by other people who need a giant hunk of metal sitting behind other giant hunks of metal, not bikes. Getting around anywhere in this city is gridlock because of every overweight American needing a giant cage to haul themselves around stuck behind other cages. Typically people's large cages are stopping me from moving forward. This ideology of a cyclists taking the lane for his safety causes grid lock is so outdated and only used by those who can't use logic.

The ones who obviously never cycle can always be easily identified by their ignorance of it.

[ShooFlyPie]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

I think the increase of mainstream urban biking is a very relevant topic to a redeveloping city. It is one of the main indicators of vibrancy and a modern healthy lifestyle returning to the neighborhoods. I think it's relevant.

Typical skyscraperpage foruming. I don't like what is being discussed. Call the moderator and delete the comments I don't like.

[eschaton]

To be fair, it might be worth having a general Pittsburgh chatter thread. I'd like it if we had somewhere we could have a more open-ended discussion of neighborhoods, for example, separate from individual developments which take place.

[AaronPGH]

I love this forum, but over the past year I feel like things have gotten unnecessarily ugly between posters. Is it too much to ask that everyone tones things down just a little bit? Or maybe just re-reads posts before they hit post, to make sure there isn't a better way to say things? I'm just as guilty of it myself and am going to try to calm my 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

I think there are a lot of great arguments made on both sides that get mucked up by weird attitude.

[hyperion1110]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

I love this forum, but over the past year I feel like things have gotten unnecessarily ugly between posters. Is it too much to ask that everyone tones things down just a little bit? Or maybe just re-reads posts before they hit post, to make sure there isn't a better way to say things? I'm just as guilty of it myself and am going to try to calm my 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

I think there are a lot of great arguments made on both sides that get mucked up by weird attitude.

Well said.

[GeneW]

A quick phone shot of the current state of Bakery Square II. It's about 1/3 bricked right now.