Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[blueandgoldguy]

The Argos have another year to resolve the stadium/ownership issue with MLSE provided negotiations go nowhere over the next 2 weeks. They won't be homeless in 2016 - they can remain at Rogers Centre until 2017 minimum. I say minimum because who knows if there will be a serious attempt to grow grass at Rogers once the true costs have been determined or if it will even work.

I would not be surprised if the league determined it was in their best interests to pay Braley $10 million in an attempt to bridge the gap between his asking price and what MLSE or some other group is willing to pay. Who needs a statue as a thank you from the league when you can get 8 figures instead.

[Oilkountry]

Okay come on OSMO. You're #1 acting like Nobody cares about the argos in Toronto which we know isn't true with the TV ratings. #2 you're also acting like nobody is showing up to these games, If the Argos were drawing 7000 people a game I would understand where you're coming from but they are drawing 18k-20k which isn't necessarily great but its Not like this isn't fixable. Alot of people see black and white when it come to the Argos situation. If it got fixed in Montreal why cant it get fixed in Toronto? If anything the odds of it getting fixed in T.O are far greater than they Were for the Als. #1 attendance isn't as bad in RC as it was in the BIG O. #2 Argos will be moving into a way better home then the Als did. Why anyone thinks that drawing 5000 more fans to CFL games going from one of the worst atmospheres to one of the best will be such a hard bargain is beyond me. Ive said it before... put TFC in RC for 10 seasons before BMO is built in 2006 and try and tell me it would have been as successful off the field in 2005 as it is today. Atmosphere is everything in live sporting events, basically equal to the product on the field/turf/ice ect.

I will agree that if MLSE isnt involved as an owner this isnt going to be a long term fix.

For example the Oilers for decades payed $1 a season to play out of rexal and retained 100% of ticket sales. However Northlands (who ran the coliseum) collected 100% of parking and concession revenues and naming rights revenue for the building. They also had exclusive rights to all concerts/events in the arena and any revenue from involved with hosting them. So when katz bought the team and the current lease expired he basically went to the city (who owns rexal) and said listen im taking the building over or I cant do business here. needless to say northlands has very little to do with the arena anymore while the oilers play there.

The moral of that story is that the Argos are going to have a really hard time existing in BMO long term unless rent is absolutely dirt cheap/Free because the revenue streams of a sports team reaches far beyond gate sales. (Which may be viable for MLSE because it virtually costs them nothing and creates big opportunity to make profits 9 times a year. I guarantee you MLSE wants to own the Argos and eventually will. Its a matter of how the timeline works out. Does Braley sign a lease at BMO and eventually get sick of breaking even/losing money on the Argos in BMO and finally sell the team for a realistic price? Or does a new owner purchase the team for a ridiculous price from braley and lose money long enough to sell the team to MLSE for pennies?

Either way the only company that has the ability to make real money with the Argos without a new Stadium is MLSE. The fact is that the added costs of operating the team aside from player salaries is basically minimal, They have all the staff in place and on the payroll for TFC. Admin,Marketing,concession,security,equipment managers ect. If anything I would predict an MLSE owned Agros team would bar none be the most profitable CFL team rivaled only by Saskatchewan.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

Commonwealth to anything new will be a downgrade unless Edmonton builds a $1B NFL calibre stadium. They have kept that stadium up beautifully... it's comparable to well-maintaned older NFL stadiums like Arrowhead.

There is just no point to building a new football stadium there. Why buy a Hyundai when you have a Benz that works just fine? Soccer is a different story, though... a 10K venue would make sense. But you'd think they could just expand Clarke or Foote for that purpose.

Absolutely I was just trying to get a conversation going. Theirs nothing wrong with commonwealth at all. And by stadium experience I don't mean that reflecting on the viability of the building. What I mean is that Big huge Stadiums are going to be rare in the league. You look at TD place/IGF/THF/Mosiac2.0/BMO and the word that comes to mind is intimacy. Commonwealth is far from that, not only from its size but from how far it sits away from the field. Theirs no doubt The stadium is probably only nearing half its shelf life. I just wish they built that Stadium with the CFL legacy in mind before the Games.

And Clarke Stadium isnt a stadium. Its a bunch of temporary grandstands configured in a pattern that is laughable!



If Edmonton wants to do something for EFC That would truly help them on a budget. then look no further than Empire field in Vancouver 14 Million for a 27,000 seat stadium. Now obviously EFC doesn't need half that many seats. But they do need permanent washrooms and some sort of concourse areas so the cost would probably remain close to the same. It would be a hell of an upgrade on what they play on now.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Absolutely I was just trying to get a conversation going. Theirs nothing wrong with commonwealth at all. And by stadium experience I don't mean that reflecting on the viability of the building. What I mean is that Big huge Stadiums are going to be rare in the league. You look at TD place/IGF/THF/Mosiac2.0/BMO and the word that comes to mind is intimacy. Commonwealth is far from that, not only from its size but from how far it sits away from the field. Theirs no doubt The stadium is probably only nearing half its shelf life. I just wish they built that Stadium with the CFL legacy in mind before the Games.

And Clarke Stadium isnt a stadium. Its a bunch of temporary grandstands configured in a pattern that is laughable!



If Edmonton wants to do something for EFC That would truly help them on a budget. then look no further than Empire field in Vancouver 14 Million for a 27,000 seat stadium. Now obviously EFC doesn't need half that many seats. But they do need permanent washrooms and some sort of concourse areas so the cost would probably remain close to the same. It would be a hell of an upgrade on what they play on now.

The Eskimos were filling that stadium to capacity for years and have had the highest attendance average in the league every year even when they weren't at capacity (with the recent exception of one year). It also played host to a number of Grey Cups, some last minute decisions because they automatically had the capacity. I think it's safe to say it has lived up to a usefulness for a CFL legacy stadium...

And the problem with "Temp"-mpire. It was a temporary structure that was able to make use of seating elements from the Olympics. It gets brought up a lot, but it's really a very poor example to apply elsewhere for those specific reasons.

For a comparison, the " legacy project" the Riders pursued (endzone seating with some suites, screens, etc) also cost in the area of $14 million. Bare bones... and I think in the area of only 5,000 seats. And I believe the end zones have food trucks and porto-potties... No permanent facilities or concourses included in that price tag. It too was a temporary fix only meant to last until the new stadium is built (lifetime of about 6 years for a professional team), but good enough to sit beside a community field in a small town for years and years to come (the eventual final resting place for these stands).

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Any Yeggers have some input here?

This YYCer says no.

• Commonwealth is a beauty and such an asset for Edmonton.
• Supporting two arenas will be difficult, two stadiums much more.
• Edmonton FC would benefit from the intimacy that a purpose-built can more easily provide.
• Diversity is key in urban areas, clustering stadia can create a challenging built form that is difficult to keep activated during the entire day/evening.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Nathan

And the problem with "Temp"-mpire. It was a temporary structure that was able to make use of seating elements from the Olympics. It gets brought up a lot, but it's really a very poor example to apply elsewhere for those specific reasons.

I really liked it but $14M for a temporary ground is not much bang for your buck.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

And Clarke Stadium isnt a stadium. Its a bunch of temporary grandstands configured in a pattern that is laughable!

That's why I said expand Clarke Stadium (or Foote Field).

The basic infrastructure is there with a good field, lighting and a grandstand, and it's well located right by a LRT station. It would cost less to build a new permanent grandstand on the current temp seating side of the field than it would to create an entirely new venue from scratch.



Source:edmontonjournal.com

[esquire]

Just for fun, here'e Clarke Stadium when it was in its largest form. Even though this picture was taken in 1996, the venue would have looked like this during the last season of Eskimos football there in 1977. I think the old stands were demolished just before the 2001 IAAF Worlds.


Site: globalairphotos

As a Winnipegger, it really drives home the penny-wise, pound-foolish thinking of that era in my city. We basically had Clarke Park too, but instead of replacing it with something like Commonwealth we added upper decks to our stadium and bought a couple of more decades of use in what was already a dilapidated, ramshackle facility. We also expanded our old arena too instead of building new and we all know how that played out. Edmonton did it right.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Riise

I really liked it but $14M for a temporary ground is not much bang for your buck.

It actually cost more than $14 million. That was only the government's share. Other entities put in millions more. The actual total all-in cost was closer to $20 million.

[king10]

So remember how Tim Hortons Field was supposed to be completed in June 2014. Well uh we'll be lucky to have it done June 2015.

It has passed a safety inspection. However substantial completing has not been attained yet, which means the city can't take it over. They're still sealing the leaks in the concrete underneath the seats in the lower bowl. Apparently they're applying for substantial completion this week or next and hoping to have it done May 8th.

Here is the kicker though, major equipment and furniture may not be delivered till end of June just week before the Pan Ams......

O and apparently the city is complaining about 700 obstructed seats that they want resolved before signing off on "substantial completion."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/558839...y-be-embarrassed-in-front-of-the-world-/

[craner]

Originally Posted by esquire

Just for fun, here'e Clarke Stadium when it was in its largest form. Even though this picture was taken in 1996, the venue would have looked like this during the last season of Eskimos football there in 1977. I think the old stands were demolished just before the 2001 IAAF Worlds.


Site: globalairphotos

As a Winnipegger, it really drives home the penny-wise, pound-foolish thinking of that era in my city. We basically had Clarke Park too, but instead of replacing it with something like Commonwealth we added upper decks to our stadium and bought a couple of more decades of use in what was already a dilapidated, ramshackle facility. We also expanded our old arena too instead of building new and we all know how that played out. Edmonton did it right.

Not that this is relavent to the point you are making but just pointing it out for the record:
I recall Clarke Stadium in it's last years of use by the Eskimos had sections at two corners of the field angled about 30 degrees to the field. Can't remember if it was the north or south end though.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by king10

So remember how Tim Hortons Field was supposed to be completed in June 2014. Well uh we'll be lucky to have it done June 2015.

It has passed a safety inspection. However substantial completing has not been attained yet, which means the city can't take it over. They're still sealing the leaks in the concrete underneath the seats in the lower bowl. Apparently they're applying for substantial completion this week or next and hoping to have it done May 8th.

Here is the kicker though, major equipment and furniture may not be delivered till end of June just week before the Pan Ams......

O and apparently the city is complaining about 700 obstructed seats that they want resolved before signing off on "substantial completion."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/558839...y-be-embarrassed-in-front-of-the-world-/

Man oh man. I remember getting slammed over a year ago for suggesting that THF wouldn't be ready for the 2014 CFL season... I certainly didn't think it wouldn't be ready for the 2015 PAGs, though. I don't see how the PAGs can be at risk as Lloyd Ferguson suggests, though... if they played football games in there last year I don't see why it would be a problem to play soccer in there this year.

Originally Posted by craner

Not that this is relavent to the point you are making but just pointing it out for the record:
I recall Clarke Stadium in it's last years of use by the Eskimos had sections at two corners of the field angled about 30 degrees to the field. Can't remember if it was the north or south end though.

Thanks for that tidbit. It looks like the east side grandstand is a bit shorter than the one on the west side, so there is a lot of room for grandstands in the NE and SE corners...

Pics of Clarke Stadium are surprisingly hard to come by, considering the place stood until the turn of the century. I can easily find a few pics floating around online of Bomber games at Winnipeg Stadium in the 70s, but I've never seen a decent photo of an Eskimos game at Clarke.

[blueandgoldguy]

Seems to be the standard in this day and age for newly constructed stadiums to have several hundred obstructed seats..majority of which are due to safety regulations ie. height of the handrails. IGF has a few hundred partially obstructed seats in the upper deck, majority of which are directly behind the portals. Not sure of the exact number but it could be the around the 700 seats that is quoted in that article for THF.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by king10

So remember how Tim Hortons Field was supposed to be completed in June 2014. Well uh we'll be lucky to have it done June 2015.

It has passed a safety inspection. However substantial completing has not been attained yet, which means the city can't take it over. They're still sealing the leaks in the concrete underneath the seats in the lower bowl. Apparently they're applying for substantial completion this week or next and hoping to have it done May 8th.

Here is the kicker though, major equipment and furniture may not be delivered till end of June just week before the Pan Ams......

O and apparently the city is complaining about 700 obstructed seats that they want resolved before signing off on "substantial completion."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/558839...y-be-embarrassed-in-front-of-the-world-/

More reason that building it at the current location was a big mistake.

I can't say I'm surprised. In fact, some of us predicted that something like this would happen. Huge missed opportunity with a smattering of embarrassment to boot.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Seems to be the standard in this day and age for newly constructed stadiums in this day and age to have several hundred obstructed seats..majority of which are due to safety regulations ie. height of the handrails. IGF has a few hundred partially obstructed seats in the upper deck, majority of which are directly behind the portals. Not sure of the exact number but it could be the around the 700 seats that is quoted in that article for THF.

I thought they dealt with the obstructed view seats at IGF by replacing the metal bars with glass barriers. (They did the same thing at MTS Centre once the Jets moved back and people began sitting in the upper level on a regular basis... swapped the metal for glass.)

I'd imagine the problem can be dealt with at THF in a similar way... we aren't talking about 700 seats directly behind large structural beams here.

[matt602]

A lot of us predicted this way back in 2013 and early 2014 but we were slammed by people who were absolutely, positively certain that it would be on time and on budget. At some points last year even I believe that it would be 100% done soon but this thing just keeps defying logic with its never ending delays.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by esquire

I thought they dealt with the obstructed view seats at IGF by replacing the metal bars with glass barriers. (They did the same thing at MTS Centre once the Jets moved back and people began sitting in the upper level on a regular basis... swapped the metal for glass.)

I'd imagine the problem can be dealt with at THF in a similar way... we aren't talking about 700 seats directly behind large structural beams here.

I thought there is a row of 5-7 seats directly behind each portal in the upper deck that has a railing in front that partially obstructs the view of the field. I seem to remember one of our posters in the Manitoba section posting a picture from that vantage point. Not sure if they replaced those bars with glass. Maybe they did?

For what it's worth, last season on ticketmaster I remember scrolling over and clicking on available seats around the portals at IGF and it would note that most of those were listed as obstructed seats.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by matt602

A lot of us predicted this way back in 2013 and early 2014 but we were slammed by people who were absolutely, positively certain that it would be on time and on budget. At some points last year even I believe that it would be 100% done soon but this thing just keeps defying logic with its never ending delays.

I was one of those people! I cant believe its still not done after an entire off season what a joke

[thurmas]

http://www.tsn.ca/bell-tanenbaum-in-talks-to-buy-argonauts-1.268118

Yes! finally some meat to this bone! This is, if it comes to fruition the best thing to happen to the long term health to the CFL and the Argos in a long long time! One of the worst long term mistakes the Argos ever made was leaving old Exhibition Stadium on the C.N.E. grounds. Now hopefully with the power of Bell and Bell media's resources behind this team they can get the proper marketing and media presence to keep them relevant in the sporting conversation and create a niche for themselves in the GTA where they are healthy, relevant and strong for the long term!

[Trans Canada]

Originally Posted by craner

Not that this is relavent to the point you are making but just pointing it out for the record:
I recall Clarke Stadium in it's last years of use by the Eskimos had sections at two corners of the field angled about 30 degrees to the field. Can't remember if it was the north or south end though.

Like this:

Originally Posted by elly63

Commonwealth Stadium - Edmonton 1978