DENVER | Main Development Thread #6 - Page 182

mr1138 · #**3621** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 7:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Welcome to the forum.

We don't like parking podiums because they harm the walkability of the street. Pedestrians need things to be visually interesting, or a sidewalk feels barren and dangerous, and therefore people drive instead of walk. That's why Larimer Square is a nicer place to walk than, say, Court Place.

Parking garages aren't the worst option. They're much better than surface parking, and some garages are better than others. But it's a very dubious claim that they're "more green" than underground parking. By making the street less walkable, they push people into pollution-spewing cars over the entire life of the building, and that almost surely overrides whatever marginal reduction in emissions might be saved during construction.

But a building with a parking podium is better than no building at all, so as long as we take good efforts to make the podiums as attractive and interesting as possible, it's all good.

I completely agree with every point you make in your post, except possibly for the one I highlighted. I am not 100% convinced that these structures are "forever."

I think they are necessary for the time being, because of the reasons you state that they are a lot better option than surface parking, and because underground parking may oftentimes be cost prohibitive. And I suppose I can't predict the future better than anyone else... but if we use the past as an example, it would tell us that people's fundamental lifestyles oftentimes change faster than well built buildings.

Downtown will, no doubt, always need more parking than in the pre-automobile era; but I could see there being a day where it finally reaches a "critical mass" to support pedestrian and transit accessible lifestyles. If that point ever comes, and if it makes economic sense, there is no reason structurally that these couldn't be the adaptive reuse projects of the next generation. I've seen a lot stranger structures than these adapted for modern uses. Solidly constructed, and often occupying floors 2-6ish, this could actually be prime square footage if the parking ever becomes less of a commodity. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

wong21fr · #**3622** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 7:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds70

So......It appears that the building permit for 1144 Fifteenth Street has been issued.

So, everyone ignores a permit being pulled for a 40-story office tower? Yeesh, all you guys do is complain.

TakeFive · #**3623** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 7:38 PM**

mhays... Always enjoy your wisdom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corey

This my first time posting to the forum, but I have been a reader for a long time.

compliments of ministrygreetings.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by denconyny

Hey corey, welcome, and just an FYI, I also started out simply following the threads here for a long time, but then one day I couldn't contain myself and had to start posting......

And the thread has never been the same.

per www.crainearch.com

Snooze and you miss another Groundbreaking: Capitol Hill: 701 Sherman Update #1
YES!

per myfunnymemes.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds70

So......It appears that the building permit for 1144 fifteenth Street has been issued.

So you're saying there's a chance then?

I was thinking earlier that with everything that's under construction including recent groundbreakings what else was pending in the next 2/3 months besides 1144 15th Street and NWC of 15th and California Streets?

RyanD · #**3624** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 7:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wong21fr

So, everyone ignores a permit being pulled for a 40-story office tower? Yeesh, all you guys do is complain.

Psh... I haven't ignored this hoss. I CANNOT WAIT to photograph this project with drone-y and camera. (This will be the largest project I've followed in my DenverInfill tenure).

Here's a perspective reminder...

<<INSERT DANCING FRUIT>>

denconyny · #**3625** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 8:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive

And the thread has never been the same.

I believe you......

I've always said that I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member...... but these forums here just have to pull me in......

But..... it's all in fun (most of the time, eh?)

PLANSIT · #**3626** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 8:19 PM**

Why hasn't DIRT drawn us a diagram yet?!

Cirrus · #**3627** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 8:46 PM**

It's there. You have to toggle on "proposed" buildings. Or I suppose get whoever manages the diagrams these days to recategorize it as under construction.

TakeFive · #**3628** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 8:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr1138

I completely agree with every point you make in your post, except possibly for the one I highlighted. I am not 100% convinced that these structures are "forever."

Downtown will, no doubt, always need more parking than in the pre-automobile era; but I could see there being a day where it finally reaches a "critical mass" to support pedestrian and transit accessible lifestyles. If that point ever comes, and if it makes economic sense, there is no reason structurally that these couldn't be the adaptive reuse projects of the next generation. I've seen a lot stranger structures than these adapted for modern uses. Solidly constructed, and often occupying floors 2-6ish, this could actually be prime square footage if the parking ever becomes less of a commodity. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

I've envisioned a time when self-driving cars would park on excess land along freeways (except Denver hasn't saved any) and hop on streetcars.

Cirrus does provide great visual examples though, doesn't he?

PLANSIT · #**3629** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 9:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's there. You have to toggle on "proposed" buildings. Or I suppose get whoever manages the diagrams these days to recategorize it as under construction.

Nice! Never knew you could add the proposed stuff like that.

Except, we'll have to get someone to update the height (609'), floors (40) and the overall design/massing (building isn't quite so narrow and has a different base/podium and crown). That placeholder is bit off. Great to see nonetheless.

wong21fr · #**3630** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 9:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's there. You have to toggle on "proposed" buildings. Or I suppose get whoever manages the diagrams these days to recategorize it as under construction.

Oh for the love of God..... Dirt could you please create a respectable version of 1144 15th? Not this abomination birthed from the nether regions of Lucifer.

corey · #**3631** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 10:10 PM**

I hear what your saying about the negatives of parking podiums. But, it the entire ground level of the building is used for the building lobby, retail, etc. with only the vehicle access interrupting it, I don't think it degrades the pedestrian experience of the building any more than underground parking. I think the idea that parking podiums could be adapted in the future for non-automobile uses is intriguing and a possible long term plus. Very excited that the construction of the Hines building on 15th St looks like it is starting! I seriously can not believe Tabor Two hasn't started! I don't know how much more positive the economic outlook has to be. The foundation is already completed. I am currently living in the SF area, wishing I was back in Denver. Any one who says design and construction in SF is superior to Denver hasn't really looked around. Yes, plenty of stick-built, EIFS. Especially in Hayes Valley and South of Market. Actually, the last building near downtown Denver that I think looks kind of cheap is 2020 Lawrence. Other than that I think pretty much everything new close to downtown is fine since they are using higher quality materials than say 5+ years ago. How is the renovation and re-use of that 100+ church on the border of RINO and Curtis Park coming? It is near Redline if I remember correctly.

TakeFive · #**3632** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 10:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by corey

I am currently living in the SF area, wishing I was back in Denver. Any one who says design and construction in SF is superior to Denver hasn't really looked around. Yes, plenty of stick-built, EIFS. Especially in Hayes Valley and South of Market. Actually, the last building near downtown Denver that I think looks kind of cheap is 2020 Lawrence. Other than that I think pretty much everything new close to downtown is fine since they are using higher quality materials than say 5+ years ago. How is the renovation and re-use of that 100+ church on the border of RINO and Curtis Park coming? It is near Redline if I remember correctly.

Wait... What?

www.zocalodevelopment.com

I think for a full half block these are nice. Although, I also judge Zocalo apartments through a different lens as all his projects are either LEED Gold like 2020 Lawrence or platinum rated. Something to be said for putting quality behind the facade.

corey · #**3633** Posted **Apr 15, 2015, 11:49 PM**

Okay, Zocalo is awesome if their buildings rate LEED gold or platinum. I'll now give it more of a pass. There building across the street I think looks a lot better. I guess my biggest problem is they tacked on low quality looking art deco details to an otherwise very plain building. The concrete block of the lower floors of the building look cheap to me as well.

Denver · #**3634** Posted **Apr 16, 2015, 12:24 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Wait... What?

I think for a full half block these are nice. Although, I also judge Zocalo apartments through a different lens as all his projects are either LEED Gold like 2020 Lawrence or platinum rated. Something to be said for putting quality behind the facade.

TakeFive, have you ever seen this building in person? It does not look to bad in the picture you posted but we you are standing next to it, it is pretty horrible... (I know, I know, we are bitching someone)

On the podium debate however, not all podiums turn out bad. Look at what they did at Steel Creek, Cadence, or the Platform. Even the one at EnV (or Joule) will likely turn out pretty decently.

Dogpatch · #**3635** Posted **Apr 16, 2015, 1:09 AM**

If I could weigh in...I feel like podiums are just fine if they have retail at street level. The ones that don't are a killer. I'm thrilled that Skyhouse is filling up a nasty scar downtown, but from the rendering and from I've read, there is no retail. And it takes up a half block with seemingly no other function than parking. I hope I'm wrong about the retail, and if so, someone please let me know.

mishko27 · #**3636** Posted **Apr 16, 2015, 2:18 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogpatch

If I could weigh in...I feel like podiums are just fine if they have retail at street level. The ones that don't are a killer. I'm thrilled that Skyhouse is filling up a nasty scar downtown, but from the rendering and from I've read, there is no retail. And it takes up a half block with seemingly no other function than parking. I hope I'm wrong about the retail, and if so, someone please let me know.

6900sqf of street level retail

mhays · #**3637** Posted **Apr 16, 2015, 3:24 AM**

Podiums can be convertable to other uses but only if designed to make it possible. Garages can have extremely low floor-to-floor heights compared to housing, but they can be taller from the start, though developers generally don't think like that. Sometimes ramps can be demo'd and replaced with with flat slabs at great cost, but if the whole floor is slanted it's not possible, and some designs make it much harder, not that I know any of the technical stuff beyond some vague notions.

EngiNerd · #**3638** Posted **Apr 16, 2015, 4:57 AM**

In addition to the floor-to-floor height problem, with the parking podiums, there's also the fact that they are typically designed to different standards for deflections (bounciness), live load (cars are actually lighter per sq. ft. overall than assembly or commercial office space), fire separation & ratings, and probably others I can't think of right now. They have to be completely designed from the onset for conversion, otherwise it will be very difficult (and expensive) to convert later on. Ramps are usually the least concern because they can be demoed.

I get this question at work from time to time on converting a parking garage to office, and it's usually comes with an answer the Client doesn't want to hear.

Dogpatch · #**3639** Posted **Apr 16, 2015, 5:03 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishko27

6900sqf of street level retail

Thanks for the link. Glad to see there's that much retail! That must mean that there will be some on the Lincoln side. Fingers crossed.

TakeFive · #**3640** Posted **Apr 16, 2015, 7:52 AM**

Well this sucks.

"Denver defends camping ban against legislative attack on law"
Apr 15, 2015 by Ed Sealover, Denver Business Journal

Quote:

The testimony from Regina Huerter, executive director of the Denver Crime Prevention and Control Commission, came in opposition to a bill in the Colorado Legislature that seeks to establish a bill of rights for homeless people and to invalidate local ordinances that force them to move out of certain areas

So who's sponsoring this bill?

Quote:

Democratic Reps. Joe Salazar of Thornton and Jovan Melton of Aurora, the sponsors of HB 1264, said the measure is needed to protect and give dignity to homeless Coloradans who are finding their lifestyle criminalized and themselves being pushed out of certain cities because of local laws that forbid sleeping or panhandling in certain areas.

What bothers me is not the homeless issue but rather state lawmakers thinking they should legislate what cities should do or not do. Denver has done much more than most cities (nationally) to address the problem but as the article points out the ones often creating problems for business owners, especially on the 16th Street Mall aren't seeking out services they can't get; rather they're just wanting to do as they wish without regard for others rights.

Those who live outside of Denver shouldn't be meddling in Denver's business until they've done as much towards solving the problem in their own communities as Denver has.

If it isn't the right wing nut cases in Arizona wanting to pass dumb, intrusive laws in Arizona then it's the liberal loons in Colorado.