New Downtown Calgary Arena

[Spring2008]

Nothing new really, but good to some confirmation on site plus scope.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I imagine it will just be a long term land lease.

What is the value of a 50 or 99 year lease for a $200M piece of land?

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The major roadways need to be moved anyway if the West Village plan goes ahead, so I think that one is a wash.

How can you call it a wash without understanding the details IE extent of changes required for a combined arena, stadium and field house will be massive and far greater than for west village. Also, the opportunity cost is even more massive. What is the lost value, direct and otherwise, of losing out on the West Village development intensity, including residential density, arts and culture density, and associated taxes? We can't "grow" another West Village like piece of land and double decker our core. You can't treat this like lack of business sense healthcare decision making (IE it is better so spend the money, who cares how much).

Now all the above being said, I do like that this is a combined multi-use project, and I fully agree there is value for the city. So let's see all the details so we can comment on substance. I've extremely excited to see the proposal, and can think of numerous things the city and its people could do with a facility like this, which are not possible for us to this point.

Originally Posted by Riise

I have to agree, to an extent, with Suburbia. If their development has an impact on local infrastructure, shouldn't they be assessed an Impact Fee to cover the extent of their impact? Further to this point, the reclamation of the land is a bit of a wash because their development will probably occupy most of the land no?

You're a good man (or woman) ... (or other).

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by suburbia

What is the value of a 50 or 99 year lease for a $200M piece of land?

Meh. Who cares. Because sports!

The Flames have an arena now where they pay no civic property taxes, and the Stamps have a Stadium that is similar. They lease the Dome for a nominal amount.

If the city forced the Stampede Board to pay for its ongoing use of city assets they would be run out of town too.

Sometimes to get something you want you just have to ignore the cost when the cost is just missing out on known unknowables.

I bet the city will be super glad in 50 years to have the opprotunity to redo the sports district into who knows what! Super dense residential? Downtown phase 2? Are we to account for those future potential benefits too?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The Flames have an arena now where they pay no civic property taxes, and the Stamps have a Stadium that is similar. They lease the Dome for a nominal amount.

Interesting comments. Focusing in on what you're written above, here are my thoughts ...

1. I wish legitimate charities would get such treatment!
2. What is the value of all these concessions over the last 35+ years, over which time the value of the Flames has gone up massively, creating billionaires from millionaires?
3. Is the fact that these folks have received such sweet deals now set the starting bar at doing the same, and or even starting to negotiate at that point?

I'd rather this be like the city budget, which transitioned to zero-based budgeting so areas couldn't create a house of cards justification on why they needed even more.

Still - I want this to happen - but it just needs to be fair. Enough of this "I made you billions, so now I need to ensure all of your three kids get billions too" mentality.

[Fuzz]

Suburbia, I just meant the roads situation was a wash, since they need to be re-done anyway to make use of the area. I guess the argument is that maybe a stadium complex will for the city to do it sooner, so there is that. I agreed with you on the rest of it.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by craner

Would be great if the Crowchild / Bow Tr. cluster can be fixed as part of this too.

This is where I think if you see public money where it will go.

[WaitWhat?]

Originally Posted by Riise

I have to agree, to an extent, with Suburbia. If their development has an impact on local infrastructure, shouldn't they be assessed an Impact Fee to cover the extent of their impact? Further to this point, the reclamation of the land is a bit of a wash because their development will probably occupy most of the land no?

The Field House would be the only public contribution and would its value exceed the value of the land plus future property tax that could be collected from alternative forms of development that would provide similar public benefits?

The impact on local infrastructure in regards to re-routing the Bow Trail / 14th Street mess might be something the city would have done anyway with regard to West Village redevelopment. The reclamation of land isn't a wash because the alternative is for the city/province to spend a large amount in reclamation before developers could condo the area. This saves the city/province the cost of the alternative to an arena. The fact that the flames would have to do it anyway is beside the point.

[Innersoul1]

I wonder if Druh might tweet her thoughts.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by WaitWhat?

The impact on local infrastructure in regards to re-routing the Bow Trail / 14th Street mess might be something the city would have done anyway with regard to West Village redevelopment.

Yes but just like the 4th Street underpass, the costs would partially be recovered via a levy or DP condition.

Originally Posted by WaitWhat?

The reclamation of land isn't a wash because the alternative is for the city/province to spend a large amount in reclamation before developers could condo the area.

Has it been stated that the land will only be sold once remediation is complete?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Riise

Yes but just like the 4th Street underpass, the costs would partially be recovered via a levy or DP condition.




Has it been stated that the land will only be sold once remediation is complete?

Our own Wooster said as much in emails FOIP'd from his work. Basically the land right now has close to negative value if you want/need to remediate it. Or at least the cost of the remediation and infrastructure changes basically equals 30 years of property taxes from the developed area.

That is right, if developed as a residential neighbourhood it basically contributes no taxes to the city and instead uses that money to pay for all the changes needed to host residential.

So how would exempting an arena be worsE?

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by craner

With the stadium and arena in West Village it would be nice to have some NW & South trains running from Sunalta station on event days. Don't know how they would stage them however ?

I would contemplate instead extending the 7th Ave terminus track that runs parallel to the elevated track, under or across 14th street and into the basement of the new facility and shoot it back and forth between there and the 7th Street station. During off-peak hours it shouldn't be too difficult for it to slip in and out between N.W. trains.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I would contemplate instead extending the 8th Ave terminus track that runs parallel to the elevated track, under 14th street and into the basement of the new facility and shoot it back and forth between there and the 7th Street station. During off-peak hours it shouldn't be too difficult for it to slip in and out between N.W. trains.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you.

Are you talking about the future 8th ave subway for the 201 line? Run that from 9th street underground to the basement of the new arena?

It's about 1km from 9th street to the Greyhound station.

[Policy Wonk]

Sorry, typo, 7th Ave.

The West LRT spurs off at grade immediately North of the skateboard park to a dead-end just past the western end of the parking lot.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Sorry, typo, 7th Ave.

The West LRT spurs off at grade immediately North of the skateboard park to a dead-end just past the western end of the parking lot.

Ohhh, I gotcha. I see the spur line now.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Calgary...!1s0x537170039f843fd5:0x266d3bb1b652b63a

Not a bad idea, just run a single track under 14th street to the new arena.

Ferry a few loads of Flames/stamps fans along a single track to the new arena/stadium. Give the C-train operators free tickets to game while the trains wait idly below. Then when the game lets out everyone goes home.

[Policy Wonk]

You could only really do a single train, it would be going against the flow once it hit downtown and would have to be turned around and on it's way before the next N.W. train hits the 7th Street station. But very doable late at night or on a weekend afternoon.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

You could only really do a single train, it would be going against the flow once it hit downtown and would have to be turned around and on it's way before the next N.W. train hits the 7th Street station. But very doable late at night or on a weekend afternoon.

It is actually a very interesting idea. Would need to be waterproof though.

[joe498]

Interesting development:

Creosote contamination may hamper arena plans for West Village
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/reaction-to-flames-arena-plans

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by joe498

Interesting development:

Creosote contamination may hamper arena plans for West Village
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/reaction-to-flames-arena-plans

Suddenly Firepark doesn't sound so bad!

[DoubleK]

It's creosote, not nuclear waste. It can be cleaned up.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Free fare zone expansion tickets included in event tickets maybe.

This should be the case already.