The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 308

1overcosc · #**6141** Posted **Mar 30, 2015, 8:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

honestly if the TTC ever expands its service coverage anywhere, it should be to York Region. The region is by far the most connected to the city transit wise.

I think that Toronto should annex Vaughan, Richmond Hill, and Markham from York Region. Those three cities are maturing, urbanizing, and are continuous with Toronto, as opposed to the rest of York Region which is more outer suburban.

The_Architect · #**6142** Posted **Mar 30, 2015, 9:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

The main problem with VIVA I think is the focus on Highway 7, even though Highway 7 is not York Region's busiest east-west transit corridor. The busiest is Steeles Avenue! York Region does not help fund the maintenance of Steeles Ave and they don't fund any of the bus service either. YRT will always be struggling until they finally add Steeles into their network.

There's a reason for this. Markham and Vaughan both wanted to develop along Highway 7 and take some strain off of Steeles. VIVA was planned accordingly.

Doady · #**6143** Posted **Mar 30, 2015, 10:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Hard to be at 50% with a bus only system.

Mississauga Transit had 60% during the Mike Harris days. Now it is 48% because some provincial funding has returned...

I think it is really up to the province and feds to fund transit more. Municipalities cannot afford it, espcially after 2 decades of underfunding. So I don't blame YRT for wanting to improve cost recovery, especially with ridership not meeting expectations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

honestly if the TTC ever expands its service coverage anywhere, it should be to York Region. The region is by far the most connected to the city transit wise.

Yeah, exactly. YRT has a unique problem because York Region is not self-contained. The population is strung out along the Toronto border, and then there's Brampton as well. So that is what probably they should focus more on.

That's why I said the lack of Steeles is what is holding YRT back. To completely ignore Steeles for Highway 7 is a mistake. Even Viva along Highway 7, they completely ignored Brampton. And now look at how much more successful 501 Zum Queen is compared to Viva Orange.

Maybe another thing holding YRT back is the fact that Toronto bans 905 transit from operating within its borders: incoming buses are not allowed to pick up passengers, and outgoing buses are not allowed to drop off passengers within the city. So maybe there is not much YRT can do to begin with.

1overcosc · #**6144** Posted **Mar 31, 2015, 12:40 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

Mississauga Transit had 60% during the Mike Harris days. Now it is 48% because some provincial funding has returned...

I think it is really up to the province and feds to fund transit more. Municipalities cannot afford it, espcially after 2 decades of underfunding. So I don't blame YRT for wanting to improve cost recovery, especially with ridership not meeting expectations.

They can afford it if they decide it's a priority. Kingston increased municipal funding for transit by 66% from 2011 to 2015 (from $8.0M to $13.3M). If you do the math, the transit funding increase amounted to an extra 0.5% property tax hike for 4 years in a row. There's no reason why York Region or any other city couldn't also tack on an extra 0.5% to its property tax increase for the year to pay for better transit.

miketoronto · #**6145** Posted **Mar 31, 2015, 1:44 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

YRT has long been struggling. It's an interesting contrast to Mississauga Transit & Brampton Transit which have both done a better job building ridership and improving service. Even YRT's signature VIVA project has been somewhat meh as those fancy busways have pretty poor frequencies...

It is not rocket science. Ridership growth happens when you invest in service, and provide good service levels.

The problem with YRT, is they focused on VIVA, but never improved service on other local bus routes.

Brampton, in contrast, improved all local feeder services, in addition to the BRT service.

Also, if you are trying to bring up your cost recovery, cutting service is not really the way to do it. The reason, you just end up running more empty buses than you had before.
You need to improve the service, and fill more seats.

YRT is having serious ridership issues, and it is going to take service improvements to build ridership.

Some of the issues with York Region ridership also has to do with how the system is operated. Many York Region routes do not operate on clock face timetables. And when you are operating low frequency service, people hate waiting for a bus that comes every 47 minutes, and they can't remember the schedule.

I know some people in York Region who are big transit supporters. They have almost all given up on taking York Region Transit, or they have reduced the frequency at which they use it, due to the poor schedules. There is one bus route that ran every 30-60 minutes (with 10 minute rush hour service) for a long time. It now runs something like every like 22 minutes in rush hour, and up to every 70 minute in off peak times. Service also operated until 12 midnight to 1am. Now services end around 11pm or earlier. And that is only one route.

Doady · #**6146** Posted **Mar 31, 2015, 7:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

They can afford it if they decide it's a priority. Kingston increased municipal funding for transit by 66% from 2011 to 2015 (from $8.0M to $13.3M). If you do the math, the transit funding increase amounted to an extra 0.5% property tax hike for 4 years in a row. There's no reason why York Region or any other city couldn't also tack on an extra 0.5% to its property tax increase for the year to pay for better transit.

York Region will spend 111.7M for transit operations in 2015. I don't think willingness to spend on transit has been their problem, especially you consider Viva...

Innsertnamehere · #**6147** Posted **Mar 31, 2015, 7:37 PM**

It also has a population of over 1,000,000, or around $100 per resident.

Compare to Toronto which spends around $200 per resident.

miketoronto · #**6148** Posted **Mar 31, 2015, 11:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

York Region will spend 111.7M for transit operations in 2015. I don't think willingness to spend on transit has been their problem, especially you consider Viva...

Brampton spends less than that, and provides its residents with much higher service levels.
More proof that low service levels cost more to operate.

SkahHigh · #**6149** Posted **Apr 1, 2015, 2:10 PM**

Some nice AMT commuter shots:

AMT Commuter at Baie D'Urfe by selkirksubrailfilms, on Flickr

AMT 816 by Michael Berry Railfan, on Flickr

manny_santos · #**6150** Posted **Apr 1, 2015, 4:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think that Toronto should annex Vaughan, Richmond Hill, and Markham from York Region. Those three cities are maturing, urbanizing, and are continuous with Toronto, as opposed to the rest of York Region which is more outer suburban.

Politically, this could be extremely difficult, but not impossible. Historically, Metropolitan Toronto was formed out of the most urban part of York County, so it would make sense for Metro's successor to expand to include more of the urban area that is in York Region.

Has there ever been talk of amalgamating Mississauga and Brampton, such as during the municipal amalgamation frenzy of the 90s?

1overcosc · #**6151** Posted **Apr 1, 2015, 4:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Politically, this could be extremely difficult, but not impossible. Historically, Metropolitan Toronto was formed out of the most urban part of York County, so it would make sense for Metro's successor to expand to include more of the urban area that is in York Region.

Has there ever been talk of amalgamating Mississauga and Brampton, such as during the municipal amalgamation frenzy of the 90s?

The suburban GTA (York/Durham/Halton/Peel) was completely exempt from the 1990s municipal consolidations... every other county/RM in the province was drastically restructured, except for those 4. I highly suspect that is because of politics, that region was the key to the Harris government remaining in power.

kwoldtimer · #**6152** Posted **Apr 1, 2015, 5:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Politically, this could be extremely difficult, but not impossible. Historically, Metropolitan Toronto was formed out of the most urban part of York County, so it would make sense for Metro's successor to expand to include more of the urban area that is in York Region.

Has there ever been talk of amalgamating Mississauga and Brampton, such as during the municipal amalgamation frenzy of the 90s?

Perhaps once Toronto successfully digests its inner suburbs, say in 50 years or so, they can think about expanding outward into the outer suburbs. At the moment, it would be like trying to absorb alien life forms.

333609543 · #**6153** Posted **Apr 2, 2015, 4:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

I think YRT was expecting 19 million riders in 2006 the first year of VIVA. But they got 17 million instead. It's been financial crisis ever since with lots of fare hikes, service cuts and labour disruptions.

VIVA was similar to Transit City or SmartTrack. Just some fantasy map a politician drew up.

The main problem with VIVA I think is the focus on Highway 7, even though Highway 7 is not York Region's busiest east-west transit corridor. The busiest is Steeles Avenue! York Region does not help fund the maintenance of Steeles Ave and they don't fund any of the bus service either. YRT will always be struggling until they finally add Steeles into their network.

Steeles is served by the TTC in its entirety, so putting service on Steelesw would be redundant.

#**6154** Posted **Apr 2, 2015, 10:55 PM**

Content removed

eemy · #**6155** Posted **Apr 3, 2015, 1:19 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The suburban GTA (York/Durham/Halton/Peel) was completely exempt from the 1990s municipal consolidations... every other county/RM in the province was drastically restructured, except for those 4. I highly suspect that is because of politics, that region was the key to the Harris government remaining in power.

I believe Waterloo Region is the other major exception to the amalgamation frenzy.

Doady · #**6156** Posted **Apr 4, 2015, 5:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

It also has a population of over 1,000,000, or around $100 per resident.

Compare to Toronto which spends around $200 per resident.

For York Region to start spending $200 per resident to subsidize transit operations comparable to Toronto, the size of YRT's fleet would also have to be comparable to the TTC's. The TTC has 5 times as many buses and streetcars as YRT, and many more subway trains, and this fleet was built up during a time when the province provided 75% subsidy for capital costs.

For YRT to even double the size of their bus fleet, it would cost them over $200 million dollars, 0% subsidized by the province. Furthermore, YRT would also have acquire property and build a garage to store and maintain those buses, which cost more millions. They would also have to find and hire a thousand new operators for those new buses as well.

Seriously I don't see the point comparing to Toronto which grew during a different period and is much older and had more time to develop the system. Do you seriously think that Finch Avenue East had buses arriving every 2 minutes 30 seconds the very first day the service was introduced? The service grew gradually over many years to get to where it is now. It is same as what is happening in Mississauga and Brampton now. York should be the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Brampton spends less than that, and provides its residents with much higher service levels.
More proof that low service levels cost more to operate.

Brampton has much higher per capita ridership than York.

Higher ridership = higher operating revenue = higher service levels and/or lower net cost to operate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 333609543

Steeles is served by the TTC in its entirety, so putting service on Steelesw would be redundant.

Yes, Steeles is served by the TTC, not YRT. Meaning Steeles is not part of YRT's system. Which was my point.

To transfer between the Steeles bus and any YRT bus requires two fares, even if you are traveling entirely within York Region.