General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I love Songbird, but my jaw dropped when I read that. Some voices in the movement are saying they're not anti-development, but I've read several postings from people who seem to think that things should stay exactly as they are -- vacant lots and all. Or maybe they want to see Evans-Churchill rebuilt as the type of neighborhood it once was. Without a time machine, that will never happen, so it's best to move forward by filling those vacant lots at higher densities appropriate for their proximity to Downtown and light rail.

Unfortunately, I think your first hypothesis - that they'd rather the land sit empty - is probably more the case than them wishing to see the neighborhood reborn as a single-family community. I mean, the "destruction" of the TEMPORARY A.R.T.S. market on the vacant land between 314 and 420 E Roosevelt was cited as one of the casualties of the former Wood Partners proposal.

I mean, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this community doesn't value urban ideals. This a group that has forced the City into researching a comprehensive parking plan for the neighborhood, while eliminating on-street parking along Roosevelt for 20' sidewalks that will sit empty the majority of the time.

I think this group thinks First Fridays is the epitome of culture, and doesn't see a need for change. They don't use the park, so they don't care if enough density is built nearby to support its use. They don't live downtown, so they don't care that more residential units are needed to gain basic amenities like hardware stores, grocers, etc. Their world is simply the arts district as it stands today, and it's really quite sad that a group that should be at the forefront of inclusion and community-building is so insular and close-minded. Words like "high rises," "greed," and "gentrification" are thrown around as scare tactics as a way to keep the status quo.

Unfortunately, those of us here understand that Roosevelt Row doesn't operate in a vacuum, and realize that a vibrant and revitalized Evans Churchill is needed for the core of downtown to be successful, for Phoenix to become a world-class city with a true, distinct and admired arts and cultural district, and for the Central City to become connected from Lincoln through Midtown and on to Uptown. And, we understand what that will take: density, infill, mixed uses, sustainability, etc. even if it comes at the expense of a dirt lot used for someone's stand-up poetry slam on First Fridays.

[Jjs5056]

While the specific article probably belongs in the SE development thread, I posted it here because it sums up a lot of my feelings when it comes to my stance on student and affordable housing, when there aren't a similar amount - or more - of market rate units being proposed. Phoenix could really take a lesson in questioning whether their strategy of approving these low-income, or income-restricted projects on prime lots downtown is a solid long-term strategy. As it stands, more income-restricted projects have broken ground since the recession than market rate rentals.

On another note, it's incredible how much housing has been proposed along the Mesa light rail. It's pretty telling how low the confidence is in the downtown Phoenix market that Mesa is outperforming it. I think their success story also highlights the importance of having a central main street/boulevard, something that downtown sorely lacks, and why I think Roosevelt needs particular care when it comes to planning because it's one of the only blocks that could potentially fill that void.

http://azbex.com/mesa-council-debates-downtown-housing/

[PHX31]

Don't forget about The Union, Portland on the Park, and a couple other small ones... I know it feels like, with everything downtown Phoenix seemingly has going for it, there should be more, but it's not like there's zero market-rate happening. You mentioned "broken ground" and "proposed". I'd like these to be in the latter finally, but I'm hopeful they will be and we can feel better about things.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Don't forget about The Union, Portland on the Park, and a couple other small ones... I know it feels like, with everything downtown Phoenix seemingly has going for it, there should be more, but it's not like there's zero market-rate happening. You mentioned "broken ground" and "proposed". I'd like these to be in the latter finally, but I'm hopeful they will be and we can feel better about things.

I'm really only considering those that have broken ground. I am hopeful as you are, but look at the list below. Out of all of these projects, not a single one has broken ground. That makes me uncomfortable to assume any project is a "go." Portland on the Park and Union are my favorites, and along with iLuminate and Linear, will really help the Roosevelt streetscape. 4th/McKinley is the other one I rave about constantly, because it ties together Skyline and Roosevelt Point, and includes 10 live/work units which we need a heck of a lot more of as they have been extremely successful.

1. The Union
2. Portland on the Park
3. Ballpark Apartments
4. Broadstone Central
5. Edison Central
6. artHAUS on 1st Ave
7. 4th/McKinley

--Planned for this year--
8. Barrister Place
9. Central Station
10. iLuminate
11. Linear
12. Alta Fillmore
13. 2nd/Moreland Condos
14. Broadstone Arts District
15. The Muse

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

1. The Union
2. Portland on the Park
3. Ballpark Apartments
4. Broadstone Central
5. Edison Central
6. artHAUS on 1st Ave
7. 4th/McKinley

--Planned for this year--
8. Barrister Place
9. Central Station
10. iLuminate
11. Linear
12. Alta Fillmore
13. 2nd/Moreland Condos
14. Broadstone Arts District
15. The Muse

I think I have an idea about all of these, except the bolded ones. Can you tell me where they are planned?

And what's the difference between Broadstone Arts District and Broadstone Central? Is one of them the one planned for the existing Quality Inn & Suites location at Alvarado/McDowell?

[Jjs5056]

Someone posted an article with a quote from Sarver about a new Suns arena. Everything I have read regarding downtown arenas is that they don't provide nearly the economic boost to the city that the NBA and co. claim. That's pretty evident considering the lack of any development in the immediate vicinity of USAC - though of course you can argue it was one piece of the puzzle that spurred things like CityScape... but, as far as organic retail or residential private investment, it hasn't happened.

So, if the City/people agree to a new arena, which will of course come with heavy subsidies, I hope they at least have the sense to include certain development requirements in order for certain incentives to kick in (similar to CityScape). Given that they also control the lot immediate west of the arena, there's potential for one massive deadzone killing any sort of momentum south of Jefferson.

I would want to require a certain amount of retail square footage, % frontage along each street, and ~250 market rate residential building with a % set aside for affordable units. And, I'd make the development of the west block a separate deal with its own requirements (probably just frontage requirements to ensure a mono-use garage isn't built). That would guarantee residential numbers which is much more of a sure bet to increase spin-off developments, and would be the last real shot at turning Jackson Street into something.

Ideally, I would like to see the below happen... I wish the entire St. James and Monroe hotels were saved, but the stump of the St. James they left is really just an insult. There are very few ways I can think of for developing that lot, while incorporating the stump in a way that it actually adds to the project and isn't just a random break in the facade. As crappy as it sounds, I'd be fine with them just demo'ing it at this point.



Anyway, the idea of that plan is to put the parking garage south of Jackson and have the pedestrian exit/entry open onto the park space to encourage foot traffic and use of the warehouses in the immediate area. The red lines are meant to represent large-scale LED TVs/advertising lining a 2nd story.

[dtnphx]

I ran across an article on two new apartment buildings being built in Downtown Houston.
http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/morni...ved-downtown.html?ana=e_vert_st_20150216

The article mentioned The Downtown Living Initiative which provides some funding per apartment door to develop apartments in Houston's downtown. Here is a link to the program:
http://pdf.leeazmail.com/pdfs/downtownlivinginitiatehouston.pdf

I'm wondering if Phoenix officials know about this. This could be a good catalyst to bring new housing downtown.

[combusean]

^ The Government Property Lease Excise Tax (GPLET) subsidy that practically all new developments downtown get is pretty generous vs the regular property tax the property owner might pay.

For example, the non-subsidized 140-unit Met at 200 E Fillmore paid $172,874.80 in property tax in 2014 for a 3 story older building.

For the much more expensive 280-unit Broadstone Arts District development, "the [GPLET] agreement will last up to 20 years with the company making lease payments from $10,000 to $350,000 a year."

That $350,000 is regardless of inflation and increased real estate values that will occur in 2036, and that $10,000 tax the first year is a freaking deal and a half.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by combusean

^ The Government Property Lease Excise Tax (GPLET) subsidy that practically all new developments downtown get is pretty generous vs the regular property tax the property owner might pay.

For example, the non-subsidized 140-unit Met at 200 E Fillmore paid $172,874.80 in property tax in 2014 for a 3 story older building.

For the much more expensive 280-unit Broadstone Arts District development, "the [GPLET] agreement will last up to 20 years with the company making lease payments from $10,000 to $350,000 a year."

That $350,000 is regardless of inflation and increased real estate values that will occur in 2036, and that $10,000 tax the first year is a freaking deal and a half.

At the expense of the school districts, which are separate governmental jurisdictions with no voice in the matter. The City should pony up its own money for these things.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I've been to Miller Park and knew it had a decent tailgating scene, and after having attended a game there and seeing the tailgating first hand, it makes perfect sense why it was constructed away from Downtown Milwaukee in a sea of parking lots. Its tailgating experience began when County Stadium still existed, and probably makes it the only ballpark in the majors where that kind of built environment is justified or understandable. It's truly a unique experience and something the Brewers and its fans should be (and are) proud of.

You guys have already touched on this, but besides the Warehouse District to the southeast and the food trucks set to be placed outside the west gates, what other urban experiences could possibly be created around Chase Field? The garage mahal and the south exhibit hall of the Convention Center are to the north and the Seventh Street overpass is to the east. Other than taking the light rail and the handful of bars and restaurants in the parking garage separating Chase from America West Arena (or whatever its soon to be called), what other hope is there for creating an urban baseball experience besides the Warehouse District?

Also, I know this is hypothetical, but what happens to America West if the Suns get a new arena and leave? Would it sit vacant besides concerts or would it be torn down and replaced with something else? The Valley seems to be getting to a point (especially if the Coyotes leave) where it has more arenas and concert halls than it knows what to do with...

Aside from the Warehouse District, there are definitely ways to make the surrounding area more urban, but it would take collaboration and effort. USAC has retail spaces facing Jefferson, and facing the Bud Light Paseo. They are currently being used for pretty lame purposes, but they could easily be filled with bars, restaurants, and sports-related retail... The Paseo was always envisioned as the main connection/entrance into the Jackson Entertainment District. Imagine all those spaces filled, and a brewery inside Sun Merc, surrounded by food trucks? Additionally, there is the parcel on the corner of Jefferson/3rd St where the W was slated. Initially, a 1-story restaurant was going to be built there, so it isn't inconceivable that something simple like that could be added. All of this would be made even more great if the hotels on Madison hadn't been demolished.

As far as USAC, I really hope that doesn't happen. I imagine if it does, though, that it would attempt to stay profitable through concerts, events, etc. before ultimately becoming dated and closed, at which point the market would probably determine what would become of it/the land.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

As far as USAC, I really hope that doesn't happen. I imagine if it does, though, that it would attempt to stay profitable through concerts, events, etc. before ultimately becoming dated and closed, at which point the market would probably determine what would become of it/the land.

Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum, the predecessor of USAC / Talking Stick Arena is still standing, 20 years after the Suns moved out. Of course, that venue plays a role in the state and county fairs, so it may last until the fairgrounds move someday.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum, the predecessor of USAC / Talking Stick Arena is still standing, 20 years after the Suns moved out. Of course, that venue plays a role in the state and county fairs, so it may last until the fairgrounds move someday.

It also has historic value and is located where there isn't demand for redevelopment.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if USAC is going to be replaced or abandoned but several of the Suns blogs I follow had some rumblings a few months back about the team and Sarver talking about getting either major upgrades to USAC or building a new arena (all courtesy of the taxpayers, of course).

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if USAC is going to be replaced or abandoned but several of the Suns blogs I follow had some rumblings a few months back about the team and Sarver talking about getting either major upgrades to USAC or building a new arena (all courtesy of the taxpayers, of course).

Yep, and all of the research I've seen indicates that the "economic benefits" that those in charge typically highlight as an incentive to accept new sports taxes are greatly exaggerated, and that sports venues don't spur nearly the amount of development or private investment that is constantly predicted.

I mean, USAC is a perfect example. Sure, some of the nearby restaurants would miss the game/event-day peaks, but I don't think the success of that area is due to the arena and I think downtown has matured enough to the point that it would survive just fine without it.

If AZ/PHX does get burdened with footing the bill for upgrades, I hope we're smart enough to include conditions for the development. San Diego did this and it's been praised as one of the smartest urban sports developments as a result. I'd love to see something like:

*200 affordable housing units
*~20,000 square feet of retail
*X amount of square footage developed on the lot immediately west of the site (where the remains of the St. James Hotel are)
*X number of subterranean parking spots
*Above-ground parking must be screened, and integrated into a mixed use structure

[johnnyb588]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I'd love to see something like:

*200 affordable housing units
*~20,000 square feet of retail
*X amount of square footage developed on the lot immediately west of the site (where the remains of the St. James Hotel are)
*X number of subterranean parking spots
*Above-ground parking must be screened, and integrated into a mixed use structure

I agree that if taxpayers are going to be expected to foot the bill, There needs to be something else in the plan besides "if you build it, they will come." Something more like, "If I'm paying you to build it, you're going to build something that works for me."

[ASU Diablo]

While we are on the subject. I don't believe nothing new is being reported but I would rather have a new arena in the South Building Convention Center site, if developed the right way. I would hate for this to go somewhere in the Warehouse District as the article suggests...

Could the Phoenix Suns, city build a new arena at Phoenix Convention Center site?
Mike Sunnucks - Phoenix Business Journal
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/...-city-build-a-new-arena-at.html?page=all

The Phoenix Suns play in one of the oldest arenas in the National Basketball Association and could soon be looking at major renovations to US Airways Center or possibly a new arena altogether.

One scenario being talked about — at least in real estate and downtown Phoenix circles — is a new arena being built where the current South Building of the Phoenix Convention Center is on Jefferson and Third streets. That is the oldest convention center building and is a block away from the Suns' current arena.

US Airways Center — which is being renamed Talking Stick Resort Arena — opened in 1992.

It will soon be the fifth oldest NBA arena after new homes are built for the Golden State Warriors, Milwaukee Bucks and Sacramento Kings.

US Airways Center is owned by the city of Phoenix and the Suns lease doesn’t expire until 2029, according to city spokeswoman Deb Ostreicher.

The Suns could look to the city for renovations of the downtown arena or could look for a new home.

“We are in constant communication with the Suns on a variety of issues. They have been an excellent community partner for 25 years and we look forward to the next 25 years together,” Ostreicher said.

Suns Senior Vice President Maria Baier said the talk around town about a Suns arena and the convention center scenario, is speculation.

“There’s all kinds of rumors swirling around,” Baier said. “But we’ve had no serioucs conversation with the city about it yet.”

Baier said the team has not decided on a specific site or sites or possible renovation plans.

“There has been no converstation or no decision at this point,” she said.

The Phoenix Convention Center’s South Building was built in 1985 and totals 143,500 square feet of exhibt space. The entire complex went through a $600 million renovation and expansion in 2009. That added new buildings and space. The South Building underwent renovations in 2008.

There are parking and vacant lots and warehouse buildings near US Airways Center the Suns might also look at for a new downtown arena.

But that could run into opposition from the Warehouse District developer Michael Levine.

Levine has been a legal and political foil to the Suns and owner Robert Sarver over on-street parking and demolition of a building near the arena.

Levine owns and rehabilitates Warehouse District buildings. He said he will oppose any tax breaks for city subsidies for new Suns home.

All of the professional sports venues in the Valley (US Airways Center, Chase Field, University of Phoenix Stadium and Gila River Arena) were built with public financing.

[biggus diggus]

I wonder if they could build the arena yet still add to the exhibition hall underneath the south building... thought the original intention was to have that thing run under all three buildings.

[somethingfast]

I love the Suns. Or I *have* loved the Suns. But not sure they deserve public financing or even a significant public financing component. Colangelo delivered a quality product, year in and out. Sarver? Not so much. Hard to get excited about this team the last 10 years. Shouldn't the public expect a "civic-worthy viable" product if the sports owners keep demanding "economically viable" premises? Yeah, okay...I'm bitching here. Mondays and all. But I'm not bandwagoning *any* kind of quick fix for the Suns. They don't merit it. Ahh...KJ, Barkely, Thunder Dan, Horny, Eddie J...how we miss thee...

[biggus diggus]

it was on track to continue to being a good product before that shit-show about a month ago.

I think the reality with sports buildings is someone will always subsidize them so if you say no, there is someone else willing to take it off your hands. It's a harsh reality that you have to play the game or you lose a public interest. All of the other performing arts buildings are subsidized anyway, most of which appeal to a much smaller range of people. Herberger, Symphony Hall, etc. It's all subsidized and no one seems to have the fit they do about pro sports.

[PHXFlyer11]

Saying you won't support a tax-payer funded arena because the Suns aren't playing well is ridiculous. It'd be one thing if the team wasn't spending money and trying to win, but we all know they are. It's a difficult business. A new arena and practice facilities I would argue could actually help in recruiting top-tier free agents.

Ideally I'd like to see some sort of public/private partnership with additional commercial and residential development as part of the deal.