Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[king10]

Originally Posted by logan5

In a sports world where there are leagues with 30+ teams, even 12 looks small time. Even at 12, I think you need to look outside Canada for suitable cities. At least 16 would be more credible.

The socttish premier league has 12 teams japaneese baseball league has 12 teams. European rugby league is 12 teams. Lots of european leagues have less than 20. I dont see why we should over expand because the united states has 30 teams in their major leagues. We arent the US and we arent their population base. No need to try to replicate them. Theyre one of the only countries in the world with such large leagues.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Really? Considering the CFL is a just a "bush league" with relatively miniscule revenues and marketing budget and is ignored by the Toronto media when it's not being derided by it, while the NBA and MLS are major league, darlings of the Toronto media machine and have the full weight of one of the most powerful sports/entertainment corporations in the world behind them, one might have thought the NBA and MLS should be beating the little CFL, not losing to it.

Like I said, the worrying thing is, it looks like MLS might actually be equaling or beating the CFL in the younger demographic in important markets like Van,Mon, and TO.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by logan5

It looks like MLS might actually be equaling or beating the CFL in the younger demographic in important markets like Van,Mon, and TO.

Oh, it does? I guess you forgot to post the data for that empirical claim. Because according to the data that has actually been posted, that is not remotely the case nationally.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

Are you kidding me?

-Awesome Regina stadium U/C
-Awesome Edmonton arena U/C
-Awesome Quebec arena U/C
-Tim Hortons Field almost done
-BMO Field being expanded
-New Calgary arena planned
-New Calgary stadium planned
-New Laval arena planned

And then there are all the smaller projects like Shell Place, the new stadium at York... am I missing any?

These are boom times, my friend!

LOL ABSOLUTELY! how ever none of these projects are at a fun stage right now! Quebec arena is getting close and bmo should be cool soon too. as for the rest they are kind of at the skeleton phase which isnt terribly amusing! its fun to watch the structure take shape but i love seeing the seat installation and the project completion phase.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

LOL ABSOLUTELY! how ever none of these projects are at a fun stage right now! Quebec arena is getting close and bmo should be cool soon too. as for the rest they are kind of at the skeleton phase which isnt terribly amusing! its fun to watch the structure take shape but i love seeing the seat installation and the project completion phase.

Here you are

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

https://twitter.com/TeamHop/status/581177267625295872

As for the rest of the last 3 or so pages - can a moderator move it to its appropriate thread where it belongs? The same tired arguments that have been rehashed to death over and over and over again

http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207531&page=167

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Oh, it does? I guess you forgot to post the data for that empirical claim. Because according to the data that has actually been posted, that is not remotely the case nationally.

Well obviously I had to deduce that claim using what figures we have available, but there is a reasonable assumption. Looking at the popularity of MLS among the younger demographic, then combine that with the popularity of MLS in each province, you could find that MLS is more popular than the CFL in that younger age demographic. In Vancouver, that is almost definitely the case, though there's no clear data to back up that claim. If you break the numbers down even further to the cities where the MLS teams actually play (as opposed to provincial numbers), the numbers could step even further in soccer's favour.

[YoungRepublic]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Considering the CFL is a just a "bush league" with relatively miniscule revenues and marketing budget and is ignored by the Toronto media when it's not being derided by it, while the NBA and MLS are major league, darlings of the Toronto media machine and have the full weight of one of the most powerful sports/entertainment corporations in the world behind them, one might have thought the NBA and MLS should be beating the little CFL, not losing to it.

Not really. The Argos are 142 years old, they play a sport that is much more established in the city, they have won the Grey cup a record 16 times and have won it as recently as 2012. The Raptors are 20 years old, they rarely make the playoffs and have only made it past the first round once. TFC is 9 years old and have never made the playoffs. To give you a better perspective, the average CFL fan is 54 years old. He or she is 34 years older than the Raps and 45 years older than TFC. The Argos clearly have a much older and storied history than the Raps and TFC. Cultural shifts don't happen over nigh. We already know that the magnitude of the Raps and TFC media machine hasn't translated into the popularity of those teams in terms of TV ratings vis-a-vis the Argos yet. These national TV ratings show us that the Argos consistently beat out TFC and the Raptors by HUGE margins. So any poll that shows that the Argos are more popular in Ontario shouldn't be that surprising. What I thought was interesting was how small the gap was. Given that the Argos have consistently gotten ratings in the 500,0000-1,000,000 range, whereas the Raptors get on average 100,000-300,000 in ratings and TFC get maybe 50,000-100,000 in ratings, the 3% and 7% gap in popularity seems rather tiny. This just illustrates, at least to me, that the national TV ratings hardly show us the broader picture.

[Oilkountry]

I have to say the CFL/USA version 2.0 is a really interesting concept. Spokane/OKC. I'm sure a few more out east for now. And then start moving south. Once Americans see the speed of the game and the urgency to gain yards in 3 down football they would have to be entertained by it. The funny thing about this league is that their is rivalry's (bombers/riders,Stamps/esks,Argos/Cats) But I don't deep down hate teams like I do in the NHL. Even as a bombers fan I will gladly sit down and watch a Ticats vs riders game because I'm a fan of the league not just a team. However as a Jets fan I literally would set xcel energy Center on fire if it Would throw off the wild. And I basically hate every sunbelt team in existence.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by YoungRepublic

Not really. The Argos are 142 years old, they play a sport that is much more established in the city, they have won the Grey cup a record 16 times and have won it as recently as 2012. The Raptors are 20 years old, they rarely make the playoffs and have only made it past the first round once. TFC is 9 years old and have never made the playoffs. To give you a better perspective, the average CFL fan is 54 years old. He or she is 34 years older than the Raps and 45 years older than TFC. The Argos clearly have a much older and storied history than the Raps and TFC. Cultural shifts don't happen over nigh. We already know that the magnitude of the Raps and TFC media machine hasn't translated into the popularity of those teams in terms of TV ratings vis-a-vis the Argos yet. These national TV ratings show us that the Argos consistently beat out TFC and the Raptors by HUGE margins. So any poll that shows that the Argos are more popular in Ontario shouldn't be that surprising. What I thought was interesting was how small the gap was. Given that the Argos have consistently gotten ratings in the 500,0000-1,000,000 range, whereas the Raptors get on average 100,000-300,000 in ratings and TFC get maybe 50,000-100,000 in ratings, the 3% and 7% gap in popularity seems rather tiny. This just illustrates, at least to me, that the national TV ratings hardly show us the broader picture.

You say potatoes and I say cauliflower.
You guys toss out the 54 average age bit all the time. But where do you get it from? I look in the stands on TV in most cities and I see a wide range of ages. Hell in my family of 4 alone the average age is 32.

[Oilkountry]

Cultural shifts happen overnight all the time. It wasn't too long ago the blackhawks were drawing 7000 fans a night now they Fill a 21,000 seat building and have the biggest hockey fan base in the US. That happened over night literally by 1 draft pick. Maybe BMO will be the Argos Toews. Look at the way the Argos are represented in TO. They play in a dated Stadium that has the atmosphere level of a half empty movie theater. You put the Argos in a intimate setting where the fans are right on top of the action. Let them get loud a few times and it will take off. Live Sport success is all about the Stadium experience. Market them the same way as TFC combined with BMO breathing new life into the team and You will start to see those age stats drop. In Winnipeg you see a young demographic more now at IGF than cannads. The Rum hut is a big hit on game days.

[YoungRepublic]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

You say potatoes and I say cauliflower.
You guys toss out the 54 average age bit all the time. But where do you get it from? I look in the stands on TV in most cities and I see a wide range of ages. Hell in my family of 4 alone the average age is 32.

In other words, some people prefer to reference data from an Angus Reid survey while you'd prefer to reference personal anecdotal "evidence" to support your biased position.

BTW, sorry FrankieFlowerPot. I forgot about the other sports thread. Hopefully a mod moves this discussion to the appropriate one.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I have to say the CFL/USA version 2.0 is a really interesting concept. Spokane/OKC. I'm sure a few more out east for now. And then start moving south. Once Americans see the speed of the game and the urgency to gain yards in 3 down football they would have to be entertained by it. The funny thing about this league is that their is rivalry's (bombers/riders,Stamps/esks,Argos/Cats) But I don't deep down hate teams like I do in the NHL. Even as a bombers fan I will gladly sit down and watch a Ticats vs riders game because I'm a fan of the league not just a team. However as a Jets fan I literally would set xcel energy Center on fire if it Would throw off the wild. And I basically hate every sunbelt team in existence.

Why is it so impossible to have one actual national league/championship? Every other country in the world seems to be able to do it... But with Canada we somehow always seem to think hitching our wagon to the US is the answer to everything... It's really kind of sad.

If it weren't for the CFL, Canada's slim chances of hosting a world cup would be zero. Without the Lions, BC Place wouldn't have been built back in the day, SkyDome might not have been built if it weren't for the Argos (a Grey Cup with terrible weather was one of the major drivers for that project, though the Jays were also part of the impetus of course). So you would have maybe 3 semi-decent sized stadiums in the country in Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto (I'm assuming some stadium would have happened in each city eventually, though maybe not as large as they are today), but no other city would have a need or a reason to have a large stadium.

That's the problem that evolves when a country's major cities join foreign leagues instead of anchoring a domestic as would normally occur in basically every country around the world. Major sports infrastructure in the rest of the country becomes unnecessary and untenable, and in a country as big as Canada, that can have a major impact.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by YoungRepublic

Not really. The Argos are 142 years old, they play a sport that is much more established in the city, they have won the Grey cup a record 16 times and have won it as recently as 2012. The Raptors are 20 years old, they rarely make the playoffs and have only made it past the first round once. TFC is 9 years old and have never made the playoffs. To give you a better perspective, the average CFL fan is 54 years old. He or she is 34 years older than the Raps and 45 years older than TFC. The Argos clearly have a much older and storied history than the Raps and TFC. Cultural shifts don't happen over nigh. We already know that the magnitude of the Raps and TFC media machine hasn't translated into the popularity of those teams in terms of TV ratings vis-a-vis the Argos yet. These national TV ratings show us that the Argos consistently beat out TFC and the Raptors by HUGE margins. So any poll that shows that the Argos are more popular in Ontario shouldn't be that surprising. What I thought was interesting was how small the gap was. Given that the Argos have consistently gotten ratings in the 500,0000-1,000,000 range, whereas the Raptors get on average 100,000-300,000 in ratings and TFC get maybe 50,000-100,000 in ratings, the 3% and 7% gap in popularity seems rather tiny. This just illustrates, at least to me, that the national TV ratings hardly show us the broader picture.

I would argue that it actually gives the broadest possible picture. There is a stigma about the CFL in Toronto, and a count of what people are actually watching in the privacy of their own homes gives a better idea of actual interest since you are actually consuming the product rather than just saying "yes, I am interested" or reading a couple articles so you can sound informed.

[YoungRepublic]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Cultural shifts happen overnight all the time. It wasn't too long ago the blackhawks were drawing 7000 fans a night now they Fill a 21,000 seat building and have the biggest hockey fan base in the US. That happened over night literally by 1 draft pick. Maybe BMO will be the Argos Toews. Look at the way the Argos are represented in TO. They play in a dated Stadium that has the atmosphere level of a half empty movie theater. You put the Argos in a intimate setting where the fans are right on top of the action. Let them get loud a few times and it will take off. Live Sport success is all about the Stadium experience. Market them the same way as TFC combined with BMO breathing new life into the team and You will start to see those age stats drop. In Winnipeg you see a young demographic more now at IGF than cannads. The Rum hut is a big hit on game days.

The cultural shift I was talking about had more to do with the decline of the Argos and the growth of the Raptors and TFC. I'm not disputing the idea that the Argos might get revitalized once they move to BMO field. I hope that happens.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by YoungRepublic

In other words, some people prefer to reference data from an Angus Reid survey while you'd prefer to reference personal anecdotal "evidence" to support your biased position.

Every poll I see in this thread does not say "The average age of CFL Fans are 54", they say the CFL is more popular with the 35 - 55 (or something similar) age group.

I want this moved over to the other thread as well.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Obviously the Prairies will have proportionately more young people focused in on CFL. During the summer and fall it's the only game in town in the provinces between BC and Ontario. A young sports fan in Toronto during Summer and Fall has to decide between Toronto FC, Toronto Blue Jays, Buffalo Bills, Hamilton Tigercats, Toronto Argos and now TFC2 (USL). There's just way more competition. During the Summer the Jays get most of the young women and TFC the boisterous young men, then in Winter they move onto the Raps or Leafs if that's their thing. Doesn't change the fact that CFL fans in this country average 54 years of age, which is the upper limit of TFC fans. Nothing wrong with that, I love partying with the old guys as much as the young ones but it does say something about growth trends. That being said, the Raptors clearly have the youngest fan base.

Originally Posted by osmo

Well I shouldn't generalize, as in Saskatchewan it isn't uncommon to see young people at the games, depending on the market you will see young and old at the games but overall the league has a older fan base versus the others.

with regards to the bolded, Major League Baseball has the oldest fanbase. The average age is at least a couple years older than the CFL.

Originally Posted by logan5

In a sports world where there are leagues with 30+ teams, even 12 looks small time. Even at 12, I think you need to look outside Canada for suitable cities. At least 16 would be more credible.

People need to give up the notion of US teams in the CFL. IT was a disaster last time and no amount of "careful considered expansion" will change that. Having American teams also tips the balance of competition in their favour. US labour laws will not allow for the protection of starting jobs for nationals. And the answer does not lie with eliminating the ratio - that would effectively kill CIS football. At the point you might as well shrink the field to 100 yards and play 4-down football.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

TSN has made the CFL broadcasts 1000 times better than when they were on the Communist Broadcasting Corporation!

I don't think TSN can do any better job than they do now. And I for one sometimes watch CFL games on ESPN on my US dish and they sure as hell don't look out of place with the ESPN scorebar at the bottom... no different than MNF really.

As an old TV guy, I think the broadcasts are fine but they could also be made much better. Some more keyed in graphics would be good, but don't go overboard like Fox used to (still do?) Still don't know what the reason is for not having remote cameras in the goalposts. Audio could be much better and more vivid. I know they're scared about foul language but there are ways around that. Audio is the poor stepchild of television, people don't realize how important it is to have background sound to give context to a scene.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

People need to give up the notion of US teams in the CFL. IT was a disaster last time and no amount of "careful considered expansion" will change that. Having American teams also tips the balance of competition in their favour. US labour laws will not allow for the protection of starting jobs for nationals. And the answer does not lie with eliminating the ratio - that would effectively kill CIS football. At the point you might as well shrink the field to 100 yards and play 4-down football.

Praise the Lord!

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Really? Considering the CFL is a just a "bush league" with relatively miniscule revenues and marketing budget and is ignored by the Toronto media when it's not being derided by it, while the NBA and MLS are major league, darlings of the Toronto media machine and have the full weight of one of the most powerful sports/entertainment corporations in the world behind them, one might have thought the NBA and MLS should be beating the little CFL, not losing to it.

Where's Aunt Esther when you need her. "Ha, Glory, Hallelujah"

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Oh, it does? I guess you forgot to post the data for that empirical claim. Because according to the data that has actually been posted, that is not remotely the case nationally.

How was the data sources? Was it a typical supper time landline phone survey?, a survey in the mail? All which point to an older demographic taking part. Plus 1500 is a small number to grasp the national pulse on sports which is heavily regional and fragmented.

The teams with the younger fan bases will have a better chance going forward. The CFL now needs to mature as a league and look at best ways to source more revenues and improve product. The MLS for all its weirdness still has the young folks and the greater upside to growth in Canada.